Alexander Nikitin, Garry Kasparov. "We Have Lived a Whole Chess Life Together"

Interview for the ChessNews.ru radio

http://chess-news.ru/node/26741

Evgeny Surov: It's 22:03 Moscow time, Chess-News is live, and Alexander Nikitin is on the line. Good evening, Alexander Sergeevich!

Alexander Nikitin: Yes, good evening. Today was a fabulous day, with great weather. The evening is probably good too - I was on the street for a couple of hours, or so.

ES: To those who don't know, I'll remind that Alexander Nikitin turned 85 today [on 28th January]. We have already congratulated him on the site, and I'll congratulate him again now. On our site, you can also find a birthday greeting from Garry Kasparov - probably your most cherished pupil.

AN: Yes.

Endurance training

ES: And I wanted to ask you: there was a photo on our site today where you wore a longsleeve T-shirt with number 85. Can you tell us how did you get it?

AN: Yes, it's a miraculous coincidence. And that's the story: Garik played for the youth national team, in 1977 or 1978, I think it was in Austria. They won, and Garik bought a longsleeve T-shirt for me - back then, it was fashionable. But it had "85" written on it. I asked him, "Why did you get the T-shirt with this number? Wasn't there any other?" He said, "I liked that one. Let's see what happens". In 1985, he became a world champion. So, that was the sign for him.

ES: And this photo with you running together: was it taken back then too?

AN: No, I'll tell you now. This is a photo from Garik's training camp before the Candidates' cycle, in Zagulba (Baku suburg). Our cottages stood right beside the see, and there was Geydar Aliev's cottage close by. So, as you understand, the base was, in modern speak, an elite one.

But it was great, we weren't running just on asphalt, like on this photo. We would go out in the early morning, when the sun wasn't unbearable yet, and run right on the edge of water in slippers, right along the Caspian Sea: to and fro, to and fro. These were our most favourite training sessions.

And during the day, we would run on asphalt for endurance training.

ES: Tell me who was the main driving force behind those training session: you or him?

AN: We had a mutual attraction. Garik understood that he needed stamina. I can't say that this was the best kind of endurance training, but it was, of course, very effective. And I wanted to be healthier too, to show that I'm still not weaker than that energetic youth. And I think I did manage that. The only time I couldn't keep up with him was when we moved to another camp, in the mountains. The middle-mountain air was very different. And Garry would run in hot weather on purpose, to make himself more resilient. And, as the Karpov matches showed, that helped him greatly. At the very least, he would get tired much more later than his opponent.

ES: After you stopped working with Kasparov, did you still continue endurance training?

AN: Yes, for a time. And after that, when I stopped working for the world championship team, training intensity dropped somewhat. But the fruits of the labour are still here: I'm feeling, as they say, "normally for my age".

Meeting Karpov and Kasparov

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, I think that before asking you how you met Garry, it would be logical to ask you about your relationship with Anatoly Karpov, which started a bit earlier.

AN: Well, I can't say that we had a close relationship. It's quite simple really. After graduating from the institute, I worked as an engineer. My chess contemporaries - Spassky, Polugaevsky, Tal - still continued playing chess, while I first earned a golden medal in the school, and then got my higher education as a radio engineer. While I was studying, I didn't have much time for chess. And as soon as I completed my education, I was immediately employed by a secret tech factory and worked there for about 15 years. So, I wasn't a threat to anybody as a chess player.

But my fate had a twist. Baturinsky, then head of chess department in the Sports Committee, offered me to become a coach for the Soviet team - completely out of the blue. I quit my engineering job, a good one, and accepted the chess-related offer. I was tasked with providing information to chess players: I had to gather any chess information I could get my hands on and provide it to the leading grandmaster. The first among them was, of course, Anatoly Evgenyevich Karpov - back then, he really stood out and played greatly. Well, he did play greatly afterwards, too.

I was considered one of Karpov's coaches. But then I became busy with others, and Anatoly Evgenyevich... Well, our relationship was a purely working one. He treated me as an assistant, and I treated him as a leading grandmaster who needed my help.

By the way, when our relationship soured, and I was asked to leave the Soviet Sports Committee job as a result, one of the main reasons listed was "He treated his pupil, Anatoly Evgenyevich Karpov, with disrespect". At that time, we didn't work closely. But back then, a person could be fired not for something they did, but rather for opposing the higher-ups. And any accusation, even as absurd as mine, could be used as a motive.

After that, of course, our relationship soured completely. Especially after Kasparov became Karpov's main rival. We weren't on speaking terms.

And now... I don't know what to say. Now Anatoly Evgenyevich is a part of our elite, to which I don't belong, so we still haven't any points of contact. But he's a fine man, he led a fine life, achieved success both in chess and in political life. He wanted to succeed in these areas, and I think his life turned out great.

ES: And I want to tell our listeners that sometimes, our guest's voice gets distorted due to connection problems, and we can't do anything with that.

AN: I also cough sometimes, my throat is very dry, and I have to drink water constantly because it's been a while since I had to speak for so long. I need to train!

ES: Let's talk more often then! The last time we spoke, at least for this site, was more than ten years ago.

So, when and how did you meet Garry Kimovich? Sorry for interrogating tone.

This was also purely accidental. When I got my coaching job in the Sports Committee, I wasn't the only coach for the national team: there were four of us. One of the coaches, Anatoly Avraamovich Bykhovsky, worked with youth players, preparing the youth team for international events. I think it was 1976. Bykhovsky had to go to the world youth championship. And at the same time, there were all-Union youth sporting games in our country. That was a very serious event, with chess competitions along with many other sports. And he asked me to go to these games as the Sports Committee's chess representative and write a report on the state of youth chess afterwards. I immediately agreed: why wouldn't I want to go to Vilnius and look at this beautiful Lithuanian city?

I went there, and in the first or second round, I saw a very strange Azerbaijanian team. There were very tall boys, aged 16 or 17. And then it looked like nobody sat at the third board! But actually, there was a small boy sitting there, not too tall and quite young. In the summer, he was just...

Garry Kasparov: Hello!

Garry Kasparov joins

ES: Garry Kimovich, you have joined us quite suddenly and disconnected Nikitin.

GK: Oh, wow!

ES: Let me add him back. And don't disconnect, please! While I'm adding Alexander Sergeevich, can you add a couple of words to what was already said at the site?

GK: I can't add just a couple of words, because we have lived a whole chess life together.

ES: To live a life isn't just to cross a field [quote from Russian poetry].

GK: Yes, when you know him... I dread to say it, but we've known each other since 1973! Soon, it's going to be 50 years since we've met.

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, do you hear us? We had a incident right now. Guess what?

AN: My family already told me that Kasparov just broke through.

ES: Yes, he broke into the broadcast and disconnected you. I'm joking, of course, he didn't disconnect you, but still, you've lost your connection. I'm adding him to our chat, let's see what happens now.

AN: Let's do that, I'll be glad to talk to him.

ES: Garry, can you hear us?

GK: Yes, I can. Alexander Sergeevich, greetings from New York!

AN: Hi!

GK: Happy birthday! 85 is a beautiful number. So many memories! I can turn on video chat for a second, so that you wouldn't doubt it's me.

AN: O-o-oh! Well, glad to see you!

GK: Alexander Sergeevich, when you got disconnected, I told Zhenya that in three years, we'll had to celebrate 50 years of our first meeting.

AN: Yes, Garik, of course!

GK: Such a date, you know! We'll have to go to Vilnius, to the places of our battle glory.

AN: Ye-e-eah... I think I really have to go to Vilnius. Good city, you're visiting it occasionally.

GK: By the way, Kasparov Chess Foundation is organizing a tournament there in spring, Baltic Way. I'm waiting for you there. You can go and see what changed in Vilnius in 47 years.

But I also played Smyslov in Vilnius, so, you see, there's another jubilee on the cards, too.

AN: Yes, there is.

GK: Hey, and my first Soviet championship too, in 1975. When I lost to Yermolinsky in the last round and cried bitterly: I could have won in just one move.

AN: Who knows? What if you'd won that game in one move, but your life turned out differently afterwards, and you'd lost another game in one move? Don't dwell on that.

GK: Well, in addition to winning on 40th move, I could've won a piece right out of the opening, do you remember? Just pick up the bishop in two moves.

AN: Yes, yes, yes. I think I even nicknamed you "G4" after that.

GK: Right. 17. g4, then 18. g5, and I could've captured the second bishop. Yermolinsky even saw that when he made his move, but didn't show it.

GK (cont.): Yes, so many events. It's slightly terrifying when you start thinking about it.

ES: Today is an occasion to remember all that. Why such dates are good? Perhaps they aren't too happy for Alexander Sergeevich - when you understand that you became a year older. But we all get older, not only Alexander Sergeevich. But, on the other hand, when else would you reminisce about the old days, live on radio?

GK: The main thing is that we have something to remember. If you have an eventful life, you'll always have some date to remember. I've always said that you first choose a date or a number and then start adapting to it. But number 85 is ideal for us, because this story with Alexander Sergeevich's T-shirt...

AN: Yes, the story is amazing.

GK: Most of our listeners won't remember that. However, those who read my memoirs probably should know. In 1981, when we went to the students' world championship in Graz, I was asked to buy T-shirts for our whole team, with number 84 on them. I went to a mall and searched high and low, but I was told that there were no T-shirts with 84, only 85. I had no choice but to buy the "85" T-shirts, the entire team wore them. It seems that fate already prepared us for this ordeal, hinting that the event would happen in 1985, rather than 1984, as chess calendar prescribed. Who could've thought?

ES: It could only happen in 1985 under very extraordinary circumstances.

GK: Absolutely! I remember Alexander Sergeevich coming to Frunze in 1984, to the Soviet championship. Do you remember, Alexander Sergeevich? You wore that T-shirt for the first time, came to the dining hall, and Beliavsky asked pointedly, "Why 85?" You thought for a bit and answered, "This is going to be a return match."

Yes, such stories happen.

Working relationship

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, what did you think after meeting Garry for the first time? Not immediately, but perhaps after the first tournament.

AN: A very talented and savvy boy, very knowledgeable for his age. And his calculation skills were very good, on par with grandmasters.

GK: Well, I was 10 at the time. But I did calculate variants rather quickly, yes. I had a lot of other skills to gain, but I had no problem with calculations.

ES: Garry, what did you think about? What first impression did you have about Alexander Sergeevich?

AN: A big, grown-up guy...

GK: Listen, I was just ten. Yes, he was just a big guy from Moscow to me. Baku was a big city, but still provincial. And here was a high-ranked chess executive from Moscow...

But I really gave a thought about that a month later, after the youth games, where I performed quite poorly, with a -1 result. Won two games against weak players, lost three against stronger ones, made a lot of draws. But the board was quite good: Leonid Zaid played for Ukraine (not many remember him now), Edvin Kengis for Latvia, Smbat Lputian for Armenia. And a month later, we were invited to the Botivnnik school. Abruptly! Alexander Sergeevich recommended us, and it was an absolute shocker. Imagine: I'm ten, and I get an invitation from Botvinnik himself!

And after that, it was clear that this meeting in Vilnius had very far-reaching consequences. The entire life changed... I joined the Spartak society with Alexander Sergeevich's help, and then everything else happened.

By the way, did Spartak society take you back? They expelled you a few years back.

GK: Well, you and I both know: they'll take me back when everything else changes. Our country is a land of extremes: first you get kicked out, then you get to the first pages everywhere. But, thank God, we're now living in the age of Internet, and those who want to know, do know. If some higher-ups decided to expel me from the Spartak society, I think it didn't hurt my reputation much. Those who love Spartak and its history know everything.

AN: Of course, it was a purely opportunistic decision, it's wrong. We have a photo of me and Garry together with Andrei Petrovich Starostin, the football legend. He was Spartak society's sport department director. So, we were spartakovtsy. Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian was also a spartakovets. Spartak had a good team.

GK: Nikolai Nikolaevich Ozerov...

AN: Yes. So, all that...

GK: I remember, when Spartak society celebrated 60 years in 1995, Nikolai Petrovich Starostin was still alive, and Nikolai Ozerov was conducting the proceedings. Yes, the Spartak cohort was legendary. I don't remember who else was there...

AN: [Sergei] Salnikov, he worked in the sport department too.

GK: I think [Vyacheslav] Starshinov was also there. And probably one of the Mayorov brothers. There was a lot of sporting legends in Spartak.

ES: Garry, a question to you. I've known Alexander Sergeevich for the last ten years or so. And it's obvious to me that this man has his own opinion about everything, and he's not afraid to speak out. Was he always like that?

GK: Absolutely. We were close friends, but if he had an opinion, he would make it known. And whether I was a 12 years-old Candidate Master, 15 years-old master or 22 years-old world champion, he would always speak his mind.

ES: Was it a problem for you?

GK: Well, it's always a problem. Our relationship wasn't simple, but some things are shallow, and others are pretty deep. And everything I remember now, everything that's important is what happened to us between 1975 and 1985. Or maybe even 1990, because in that most important period of my chess life, we were together.

ES: During your matches with Karpov, was he the head coach of your team?

GK: Of course. The team changed around a bit...

AN: We had a coaching team.

GK: In the first four matches, our team changed around a bit, but Alexander Sergeevich would always stay.

AN: Until Sevilla. And then...

GK: Yes, until Sevilla - during the perioud of endless matches. But let's remember that there were other matches as well. There was Interzonal, the matches against Beliavsky, Korchnoi, Smyslov. And each match, each step to the top was important. But, of course, the biggest event of all was the unlimited match, because I had to endure all that and survive. So, in my congratulations, I'm always remembering those moments.

AN: You know, Zhenya, we've parted our ways for some time. All those world championship matches, from the first to the last, aren't just a fierce struggle between two players. The internal debates between coaches and their player are equally fierce. We tried to prove that our opinion was right, the player tried to prove his opinion. We were always tense, and we burned out gradually. We had to part ways, we just grew tired of each other. Garry already achieved huge successes, and so we parted by mutual consent, and he easily found a good replacement. Many people competed to join his team.

But we were always in touch. I got new pupils, Etienne Bacrot, for instance. Then I worked with Grischuk and Jakovenko, they both joined at 10 years old. So, I had a lot of work. And then time passed, everything calmed down, and we resumed our work. So, everything was OK.

GK: When I said "until 1990", I didn't make a mistake: even after the Sevilla match, we still worked together, went to the World Cup. Alexander Sergeevich, do you remember? Also Amsterdam, when I won the tournament...

AN: Yes, yes, in Skelleftea.

GK: Yes, Skelleftea, too.

ES: What year that was?

AN: I think it was 1989.

GK: August 1989, the last World Cup.

And, of course, there was 1988 - Soviet championship that ended with a scandal and conflict with Mikhail Moiseevich, who was the chief arbiter.

AN: Ah, yes, yes.

GK: So all that is history. And many of the young and even not-too-young players only know that by hearsay. I wonder how much of that do you know yourself, Zhenya.

ES: Well, I think you're discussing many things that are quite obscure. I don't know how much of what you've said was in your books... I did read some of them, but, of course, I can't remember it right now.

AN: Well, it's all described in my book With Kasparov: Year by Year, Move by Move.

ES: From your stories, I understood that the stress (in every sense of the word) from the Karpov matches affected your relationship. But, on the other hand, you still have warm feelings for each other. I think it's interesting.

GK: How could it be otherwise?

AN: Indeed.

GK: We met almost 50 years ago, went through a lot together, ascended to the top together. So, no matter what episodes happened, our history still outweighs everything. Am I right, Alexander Sergeevich?

AN: Yes, yes. But let me reiterate: conflicts during fierce struggles cause major stress, and it burns your nerves out. You just can't function optimally anymore, you need time to rest and recharge. And we didn't have time because one match followed the other. We barely had time to rest between them. So we needed a rest. We parted ways for a time. I'm sure Garry Kimovich understood that, I certainly did. We weren't antagonists.

First match with Karpov

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, what did you feel in 1984, when Garry was being crushed? Did you still believe in him deep inside? Or maybe you didn't and never told anybody? What did you think after 4-0, or 5-0?

AN: After 4-0, my thoughts weren't exactly dark, but, of course, unhappy. And his losses were quite strange. He had advantage in a Queen's Indian with White and then suddenly lost. In Sicilian, he came up with a novelty and didn't allow anyone of us to refute it - he thought that this novelty was his, and it was correct. Karpov found a move over the board that immediately dried up all the sharpness, and Garik just lost without much struggle. In yet another game, he made the second move in time trouble. The "second move" is when a player calculates some variant and then suddenly makes the second move of the variant instead of the first. This happens sometimes, I made such mistakes too.

GK: Seventh game.

AN: Yes, and the game was over. So, all those losses were quite strange. We couldn't understand that, and I decided that it couldn't happen like that all the time, you just can't be that unlucky. So we made a collective decision: resist to the death, make draws in any way possible - with Black, with White. There was a dry period when we made around 15 draws in a row. Or was it 20?

GK: 17 draws, from 10th to 26th game.

AN: So, Garik made draws, and then Karpov started... I think he also started to doubt that he chose the right strategy, he would die first in this war of attrition, so to speak. And then... Well, never mind.

GK: No, remember, when I lost the 27th game and the score was 5-0, the game was adjourned. Tal was in Moscow then, we sat in our hotel room. He entered, looked at the board grimly, said, "Well, try to do this, and this..." It was all clear. And then Tal said, "Now all you can do is to go out with a bang", and left.

We didn't exactly despair. After 31st game, when I managed to save the position, there was a strange feeling, like something is bound to happen. And after the 32nd game, a new era arrived. First of all, there wouldn't be a perfect score now: Karpov led 5-1. And, secondly, we got second wind or something, like a new match began for us. And, what's interesting, Karpov started taking risks because he needed to win: he had no reason to hold the position anymore. Before that, he was avoiding risk to try and win 6-0. After the 32nd game, he had to end the match. But we suddenly learned that he lacked internal resources, and I stopped making stupid things Alexander Sergeevich mentioned - in 3rd game, in 6th, in 7th. So, my overall quality of playing increased. And we suddenly understood that Karpov cannot win a game. In the next sixteen games, I played much stronger. Karpov tried this and that, but it was clear that his creative potential was waning. Of course, I still could make one mistake. But in the next 16 games, he had only one real chance, in the 41st game. He could've won literally in one move in mutual time trouble. He overlooked that opportunity, and he had no more chances. In White games, he didn't get much, and in Black games, he didn't do much except for escaping. In 44th and 46th games, he was on the verge of losing. He should've lost 36th game, too.

So, he was more and more in trouble. And I remember that period quite warmly, because we changed our state somewhat - we felt that we could win. If not now, then three years later.

And then, in February 1985, everyone knows what happened. And I have to say that this reassured us in a big way. We were much better prepared for the second match.

ES: Speaking of what our listeners may or may not know... I think the very phrase "36th" or "41st" game may sound crazy!

AN: Yes, even a match longer than 12 games is considered too long now.

GK: Yeah, like a marathon!

ES: Tell me, Garry Kimovich, did you have any complaints about Alexander Sergeevich as a coach back then?

AN: Only the usual work complaints.

GK: Well, what complaints could I have... Let's just look at the first nine games, four of which I've lost... He's right. The novelty in the third game, 3... Na5 in Scheveningen, it was second-rate. But I thought that White had nothing in the endgame, while middlegame had many interesting tactical opportunities. Karpov made one correct move - Rad1 instead of Rfd1, just to get the rook away. And I panicked immediately. Though I do remember that Alexander Sergeevich was very unhappy with me, he told me that I could've held for longer, played Be7 or Nb7, protecting the pawn. "Why did you panic so early?" Yes, the position wasn't pleasant, but maybe I could've held it. Though it was difficult.

And the sixth game... I just can't explain it, I could win such positions at 12 years of age blindfolded! Karpov had all his pieces on the queenside, and the king was on the kingside. And at some moment, I just turned off and started making strange moves, starting with queen exchange. Why exchange queens when you need to create a mating attack? I didn't even have to calculate it: I think I should have seen it intuitively.

This was a major blow. Because I didn't just fail to win (I had a chance in the endgame), I even managed to lose it.

In the seventh game - Alexander Sergeevich remembered - Karpov used a new plan in the Tarrasch defence, but we were ready for it. But still, I spent an hour and a half to get to a position we analyzed at home - I think I just didn't recover psychologically. Still, I've managed to extricate myself. By the way, we both played rather well. And I was perhaps microscopically worse in the endgame. I just had to exchange queens, and I probably had good drawing chances after adjournment. And instead of capturing the queen on d3, I first played Rc2 - made the "second move". Karpov, of course, immediately played Qe3, and it became hopeless.

And in ninth game, I defended well, and I could've drawn in the play-off, but we just missed the move Ng2 - Karpov's beautiful pawn sacrifice. Still, Karpov made a mistake after that, and I could've still drawn. But still, it was all my fault, even though it was the first game where I really had a reason to be unhappy with my coaches. But it was my fault first and foremost, so I couldn't complain.

ES: And you, Alexander Sergeevich, were you angry with your pupil?

AN: Well, "angry" is a strong word... I was angry when he failed to win in won positions. Otherwise - well, I understood that the struggle was fierce. I wouldn't have wanted to switch places with him, you need really strong nerves for that. How can you be angry at a player who makes inaccurate moves in such a struggle? Karpov had his share of inaccuracies too. But he was more experienced, didn't panic, waited for his moment to strike. And Garry was much more nervous.

GK: Alexander Sergeevich, I wish you good health, and remember that we've got a jubilee in three years: 50 years since our first meeting. So you need a lot of strength and health.

AN: Thank!

ES: Garry, are you going to leave us?

GK: Sadly, yes. I called you during my work day. But I just had to join for some time.

ES: That's a pity, but big thanks to you!

GK: Alexander Sergeevich, greetings from New York from all of us, from all Kasparovs who live there. Let's hope that everything changes, and we'd be able to meet in Moscow.

AN: OK. Goodbye! All the best to you!

GK: Thank you! Happy birthday!

Some myths and misconceptions

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, when did you last meet Garry in person?

AN: In person?.. Before he left the country.

ES: So, it's been a while.

AN: Yes. I haven't been abroad after that.

ES: You know, I wanted to ask you both that, but, since Garry has disconnected, I'll ask you. There's a popular story about Alla Pugacheva meeting Garry during the first match. She either came to his hotel room, or they just met somewhere... Evgeny Gik told the story, but, with all due respect, it all looks more like a fairytale. Could you help us tell facts from fiction? She allegedly advised Garry to "make more draws", or something like that.

AN: No, Alla Borisovna never gave such advices. She just... We met in 1984, in Vilnius, during the Candidates' Final - Kasparov played Smyslov. During the match, she was performing in Vilnius, and her band lived in the same hotel with us. A good hotel, by the way. And she invited all of us to the gig, we came, and then we chatted for a bit. And then we learned that their birthdays are only a couple of days apart. So we decided to celebrate them together, and that's when they became friends.

And during the first match, when Garik was in trouble, she visited one game.

Alla Pugacheva with her husband Evgeny Boldin and songwriter Ilya Reznik

AN: I led her to the box where Garry's coaches sat (Karpov's coaches sat in the opposite box). So, I led her to the box, and everyone saw that Alla Borisovna Pugacheva was with us. I even have her take on the famous slogan "Who if not you?" The slogan was famous back then, the Japanese women's volleyball team first showed it. So, we also made it, and Alla Borisovna drew her tear on it.

ES: You're talking about a banner?

AN: Yes. Rather small, but long: 50 by 30 centimeters. Yes, a banner.

And that's it. They kept in touch for a while after that. But then they turned in different direction: she toured, giving phenomenal performances, and he worked towards his chess successes. Their roads never crossed again.

ES: I see. We have a question from our listener. It's quite long, with a quote from your book. "In your book about Kasparov (1998), you wrote that in February 1985, your team learned about Karpov's methods of "preparation" for the unplayed 49th game of the unlimited match, which was to be won by White at any cost on a very specific date. Can you clarify what you meant back then?" After that, he quotes your book, but the quote is too long, and I don't want to read it in full. What can you say about preparing for the 49th game?

AN: I don't even know what does he mean about Karpov's "preparation". Before suspending the match indefinitely, a technical time-out was declared. FIDE president Campomanes arrived suddenly and declared a technical time-out for several days. We heard rumours that Karpov tried to improve his fitness levels with help from doctors that worked with cosmonauts, given that Vitaly Sevastianov was the Chess Federation president. People in the know told us that he tried to undergo some kind of treatment. But it seems that his efforts were unsuccessful. They understood that it's impossible to quickly restore Karpov's condition after such a prolonged stress, so Campomanes suspended the match and declared that a new match should begin with a 0-0 score. Karpov was unhappy with that, but what could he do? The president understood that he couldn't continue the match and couldn't take another time-out either - nobody would understand that. So he suspended the match and said that the new match would start from 0-0.

ES: How did your team react?

AN: How could we react? We accepted it as a temporary reprieve from stress. We got a vacation to restore our nervous systems and prepare for the next match.

ES: When did you believe that Kasparov would win the crown?

AN: Only after he actually won. In the second match, the last games were just brutal. The match in general was different from the first one: in the first match, there was a lot of strange decisions, and Karpov more or less dominated, but in the second match, there was no Karpov domination. It was a match between equally strong and perhaps even equally experienced players - Garik was progressing rapidly. So, everything was decided at the finish. And Kasparov won.

ES: Another question from the same listener. It's a delicate theme, and if you don't want to talk about that, you can just refuse to answer. But it's a question about opening preparation leaked by coaches. Kasparov accused Vladimirov (in 1986), and then, as our listener writes, "Dorfman was accused too, albeit not by Kasparov directly. And much later, in 2014, one of Karpov's former coaches, Mikhalchishin, told in an interview that one of the coaches' wives leaked Karpov's preparation." So, the question is, did Mikhalchishin just try to shift the blame with this accusation?

AN: Well, the question is, whose wife that might me. Vladimirov wasn't married, and Dorfman's wife lived in Lviv and wasn't present at the match. Who else could there be? I don't know. "One of the coaches' wives"... It's news to me.

Concerning the story with Vladimirov and Dorfman - everyone has their own opinion, and it's built on purely logical constructions and facts that cannot be publicized. But I prefer not to think about that, because it's all history. If I say that one of them was to blame, or both were to blame, what would that change? Nothing. The match score won't change. And the information leak... What leak? Opening variant? Sealed move? This had no fatal consequences. It just made our work a bit more difficult and make Garry a bit more nervous. But still, the justice has been served.

ES: I'll answer your question about "What would that change" or "Who needs that". The human nature is that they love listening to memories. What happened back then, in the past? Did this happen, or did that happen? That's what's most interesting.

AN: I understand. But you should understand that time heals. So, back then we were rather angry, but now we're much more philosophical about that. What of it? What's the score? Who became the champion? That's all.

Retirement and ambitions

ES: Tell me, do you watch Kasparov's performance in the latest years? He'd played in St. Louis, without much success.

AN: "Without much success"... I think that... (Technical problems, sound turns off) Kasparov too. He didn't prepare in earnest for the tournaments he was asked to play. He didn't play for money - I think he wasn't even offered any money. He just wanted to see if he still got it. And it was 1984 all over again. A lot of games... with Caruana, or other leading grandmasters... he would get a big advantage, won positions (not in every game of course)... His result didn't represent his quality of play. But that's how it turned out. You know, sometimes you just want to try and see what comes out of that. But even if he won some small training tournaments, nothing would change. He wouldn't change his lifestyle or line of work, he wouldn't become a playing grandmaster again.

ES: OK, I understood. And when did your own chess ambitions end? When did you come to terms with the thought that you wouldn't be able to get higher than you already are?

AN: My ambitions ended, as strange as it sounds, around 1959, when I played in the Soviet championship. I played well, but finished last. By some miracle, I managed to qualify to the championship from the semifinal. And the championship final was concurrent with my exam session. I was totally unprepared to play chess, I just went to play. And it was a fantastic tournament. All the young guys, all my contemporaries against our strongest chess "fathers". Petrosian, Keres, Furman, Kholmov - the previous generation versus the young guns. A tremendous tournament! I have the 1959 tournament book, and I sometimes play through these games - just because I'm so happy to remember our chess giants.

So, when I lost in the last round and finished last, I understood: either I quit my institute and play chess full-time, or I quit chess and study full-time. I chose the latter. (More sound problems) And I think that I made the right choice.

ES: It's interesting. When Kasparov patched through from New York, we all heard each other normally, without much trouble. As soon as he disconnected, your sound started glitching occasionally.

AN: I'm hearing you much worse after Garry disconnected, even though my speakers are at full volume.

ES: That's right. New York disconnected, and the connection quality decreased.

Coaching and writing after Kasparov

ES: Alexander Sergeevich, can you tell us of your coaching milestones after 1990, in your "post-Kasparov" era?

AN: As I said, I started to working with Jakovenko after 1990, I also worked with Grischuk for a while, but then asked Bykhovsky to work with him, because Bacrot and Jakovenko took a lot of my time. I also had the Petrosian school. Until 1984, it was Spartak society's school for young chess players, headed by Tigran Vartanovich. And he really worked there - he wasn't just there as a figurehead, he would visit every training session. He taught one group, I taught another as his assistant. And after Tigran Vartanovich died in 1984, the school was named in his honour, Petrosian School. I was its head coach, organizing all the work and holding training sessions with my assistants. My workload was sometimes overwhelming.

A small addition from the translator. The photo wouldn't upload in the blog for some reason.

"Mitya is unhappy with something". This small article was published in 64 in 1991; a reporter from Nizhnevartovsk wrote about the 7 years-old Dmitry Jakovenko who finished second in the semi-final of men's city championship. The article concluded with "Both Mitya and his father are dreaming to work with a qualified chess coach, at least by correspondence". Perhaps it was this article that helped Jakovenko to start working with Alexander Nikitin?

AN: By the way, in addition to Grischuk and Jakovenko, Aronian and Jobava also grew up in that school... These guys are all very strong grandmasters. And we had at least a dozen of more "average" grandmasters. The school worked until 1992 and closed, because the trade unions that sponsored it ran out of money. We had no building to hold training camps in, no money to pay for them, nothing to feed the kids with, because there were no money. And after 1992, everything changed.

ES: Are you involved in the official Russian chess system in any way?

AN: No, I'm a free lancer now, but I don't hit anyone with my lances. I'm writing books; I'm thinking of writing another one, because my head is full of useful thought. And I don't want them to disappear without a trace. I would like to write several books that would help young kids to learn this wise and really useful game - it really helps to think and make weighted decisions.

ES: I heard you published a book about Vasyukov recently. Was it the last one?

AN: Yes. By the way, the polygraphy is just great. It's pleasant to hold in your hands. The content is interesting too. But polygraphically, it's just ideal.

ES: Do you have something new to share, perhaps? Something you're currently working on?

AN: I can't say what I'm working on, because just ten days ago, I wasn't even sure how I felt. This began somewhere in October, and all those months - October, November, December - were a time of horrible ordeals for me. In December, I visited two different surgery rooms in four days. So, I had no time to think on my creative plans. I had only one plan - to survive. Which I did.

Goryachkina and issues with world championship formula

ES: Congratulations. And I fear a bit to ask, but still: do you keep an eye on current chess news? For instance, the Women's World Championship?

AN: I do. After the successful first operation, I was keeping an eye for everything, catching up with what I've missed. So, I did watch the match between the Chinese champion, I think she's 12 years older than the challenger [actually 7 years], and our Sasha Goryachkina.

ES: The same age difference as between Karpov and Kasparov.

AN: Yes. But I have to say that Sasha pleased me very much, even amazed me, and I wasn't even upset that she didn't win the match that she could win. She took the lead, and probably got a bit carried away, thinking that it's over, and lost two games in a row. Typical 1984 Kasparov! She was trailing by one point before the last game, but managed to win it, good girl! I praise her for that. She drew the match. Such see-saw scoring, of course, is very nerve-wracking. See, I'm talking about nerves again. Chess is probably isn't as demanding physically as most other sports, but it's horrible for nervous system!

She lost a tiebreak game - it's a ridiculous system that's based entirely on economics. Because starting a match with one time control and ending with another... it's like holding a high-jump competition, and if two competitors end up with the same result, instead of having them jump on until someone drops, suddenly declaring, "And now, they'll compete in long jump." Do you understand? You need completely different training and set of skills. It's the same thing in chess.

Ju Wenjun is now stronger than Goryachkina. But Sasha gave a wild fight, she showed that the gap wasn't that big. And she's got everything ahead of her. I'm sure that in the next match against the Chinese champion, she'll be as self-assured as Kasparov was in 1985 against Karpov.

ES: I'm sorry, but, unlike Kasparov, she'd have to qualify for that match.

AN: She will. You see, she's one of those people who are ready to eat their opponents whole. Her will to win is enormous. She's good, very good.

ES: As far as I understand you, you're against rapid play-off in the world championship matches?

AN: Well, this idiocy isn't even limited by that! If they drew in rapid, they'd have had to play blitz on the same day! It's absurd! It's like, if those aforementioned high-jumpers also showed the same result in long jump, the referee would tell them, "And now you compete in pole vault. The one who jumps over the bar, wins."

It's preposterous. The only justification for that is economics: less money to pay for the accommodations of players and their teams.

ES: OK, and what would be more logical? What's the solution? Imagine that the chess higher-ups asked you to offer one.

AN: This all stems from the fact that they now think that the chess players' nervous systems can't take more than 12 classical games. There were 24-game matches before... No, the current system is deeply flawed.

ES: I see. What else does worry you in modern chess?

AN: I'm worried about the new generation of Asian talent: in India, in China. Even Iran now has strong players. Firouzja, a 16 years-old boy, lead in Wijk an Zee for a while, ahead of Carlsen and Caruana. Well, they did overtake him at the finish, he lost to such giants as Anand, Carlsen, and Caruana. But you can't stop them, they're terrifyingly strong. Especially Caruana, who I think is now better trained... (Disconnected)

ES: ...Alexander Sergeevich, still, why are you worried about the Asian talents?

AN: You see, they are our competitors, that's why I'm worried. I want our young players such as Esipenko and Murzin... (Disconnected again)

ES: Sadly, we can't reach Alexander Sergeevich anymore. I have to stop our broadcast. I'm sorry for technical troubles, but, at least, they only happened towards the end.