what problem just ignore those who cheating
Cheating in Fog of War Variant - An Investigation
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yeah the dual profile cheating is real and easy, i did it like 9 months ago and messaged chess.com staff about it. The html app is interesting as well. seems easily feasable
ya what problem just ignore people taking doping in sports
merkel
That's kinda nuts that people would care enough to cheat in some variant of chess.
Good to know, thanks.
I lost several games in a row against someone without a single win and had the nagging sensation that they were playing badly and I should be able to beat them. But nobody was spectating and so it didn't occur to me that they might be cheating, but maybe they were.
LongTermFuture
show us these games if you can find them)
Really liked your research.. I am a fog of war player who loves this game immensely.. But i don't feel that there are many cheaters in FoW. I was in the top 60 for some while but never felt suspicious that someone is cheating... I won against almost all the top players.. I never met a cheater in my life but just saw a game of cheater. I do like to discuss about in detail with you if you co-operate..
Hi everyone,
Apologies for a long post but last few days have been disturbing for me as an avid Fog of War fan and chess variants fan (also played lot of other variants like chaturaji, chess960 etc. but Fog of War was always my favourite). I am Vaibhav Saxena from India having chess.com id vsaxena, one of the "high rated players" who was banned for so called "cheating" in Fog of War.
Initially I thought there is some server error as I was not able to connect to variants page. I reached out to chess.com support who brought to my notice that I was banned! My email conversation with Bang (chess.com support team) is provided below my post.
Playing variants in chess.com had become my favourite pastime and hobby and since that had stopped after the ban I thought of making another id to continue playing - since it is just a hobby which doesn't affect my regular life, the ban shouldn't hurt me. But it does hurt me because I have always played with utmost honesty and sincerity and still I was banned! I Even if I start playing through another id, the ban will always be in my mind. I can also be banned again if my statistics seem to be unbelievable to the admin! I even thought of just playing other variants like chaturaji (where nobody can wrongly suspect me of cheating because of the nature of the game wherein also I have 2200+ rating and reached 2300) or customized variants which simba543 and Adickes introduced me to. But then it will never be the same for me. I was looking at public avenues to make my problem heard. I then came across this post from M_Javert.
While I appreciate the intent, effort and research put in by M_Javert, I don't agree with some of the assumptions. I am presuming that the admins would also have similar assumptions which led to my wrong ban (as I have not been given the full details why I was banned).
There are two ways to cheat as per M_Javert
1. Have a double account spectator
2. The HTML trick (which I came to know only through this post. I was only aware of the first way).
While this may be true, I am not sure whether the admins have a foolproof way of finding a cheat.
In my opinion, the first way can't continue for long especially if you play Fog of War regularly. People will figure out. But stressing about this creates unnecessary fear of spectators. There will be spectators, especially in higher rated games., which are also placed above in active games. I myself like to spectate when I am not playing because of love of the variant and to learn from top players. There have been frequent spectators to my games as well like Zelfmat76, stxSistina, simba543, stevesmithAUS, vam51kiran, climatic something (forgetting the username) to name a few. I remember in one game my opponent was getting uncomfortable with a spectator and I had to explain that I have got nothing to do with the spectator. With this fear people will suspect even good plays (seemingly impossible plays for the losing opponent) as cheating.
Regarding the second way of cheating, I don't know how it works. But whether it is the first way or the second, I would like to reiterate I am not sure chess.com has a foolproof way to find out if a person is cheating. This leads to the part of M_Javert's post which I don't agree - Suspecting streaks as cheating, comparison of Fog of War with poker and elements of chance.
In the post, M_Javert has suggested that long streaks are difficult to fathom. Players with 30-50 winning streak are highly suspect and one top player had a streak of 109 games. M_Javert agrees that Fog of War is a skill and strategy with certain element of chance and comparison was made with poker (as another game with element of chance). I agree that Fog of War has an element of chance but disagree with respect to the degree and also the way element of chance comes into play in Fog of War.
In my opinion, Fog of War is closer to chess than poker (say in heads up play) in terms of probability of a higher rated player winning. A player can have consistently long winning streaks against players with less than 200-300 rating points or lower than even chess (because here draw is also an option). With less number of players available online, it is also possible to have top rated players play players less than 200-300 rating points more frequently. Fog of War has significant amount of skill and concepts like in chess. Adickes has made an excellent attempt to cover some of these concepts in his youtube videos. The aspect where Fog of War is closer to poker than chess is the opportunity it gives to recover from an inferior or losing position. In chess, if you have made a mistake and lost a piece it is difficult even for a GM to recover against a decent 2000+ player. However, in Fog of War you have plenty of chances to recover even if you have lost a material. It is said that converting a winning position is a skill in chess, it is even more applicable in Fog of War where you have to keep all possible options of blind counterattack open and limit them. Creating chances and coming back in an inferior position is also a skill. A streak of wins will usually have many such games where the player lost material and recovered to win or even became lucky by opponent's mistakes to win. The most absurd line in the original post was - "Many of the players who are 'ridiculously lucky' hide their cheating well, making their individual games look legitimate by playing defensively and even throwing pieces so that others do not become suspicious." It is not rare in Fog of War to leave a piece hanging (or throw the piece!) and then still winning the game. I usually play the risky Bf4/Bg5 with White or Bf5/Bg4 with Black in the opening and have lost a bishop early in few games. However, I have still recovered and won some of these games. Poker is also a game of skill. The element of chance is the cards that you get and your opponents get in each hand and you need to be fairly lucky to win a hand. However, in tournaments, the stronger players consistently reach in the money or even final table as over a long period of hands, skill becomes more important. A game of Fog of War is like a marathon of hands (akin to moves) in a tournament rather than just a hand. A move each from your opponent and you can be like one hand where due to element of chance (you missing the position of your opponents or their pieces can just be at the wrong place at the wrong time for you), you may go wrong in a few exchange of moves (unlike chess where the higher skilled player is more likely to dominate throughout). Over the period of the game with more moves (longer game), skill should play more important role and element of chance should matter less, unless you have lost too much material initially (akin to losing too many chips initially in poker) wherein it becomes more difficult to recover. Just a piece down can be recovered in decent amount of cases by the higher skilled player (unlike chess).
Thus, long streaks are quite possible in Fog of War and should not necessarily seen with an eye of suspicion otherwise every top rate player will be suspicious (To get to 2300+ rating requires some amount of streak). I don't know what was my longest streak (can't even look at my past 6,000+ games now). I had reached a peak of 2375 about a year ago and since then have been to below 2150 levels (had a few losing streaks as well especially when I am playing too many back-to-back games) and back to 2300 levels several times. The ride up to 2300 was usually like stock market charts where 1-2 losses would be in between a few streaks. I would usually not play more than 3-4 games at a stretch against the same opponent unless that opponent was similar rated (I remember having a series of games against luizzy, Rubik87 and vam51kiran to name a few) or known player. Before I was banned my rating was 2330 and I had reached to 2320 level before going down to 2290 level and again back to 2330. I remember one of my last games was against GM Ivan Popov wherein I was down in material and I was lucky that he hung his queen and resigned immediately. M_Javert talks about a player having a streak of 109 games. I don't know whom he is referring to but the longest streak of wins that I have seen is of luizzy wherein he reach 2500+ level rating, who is one of the strongest players I have played. In that streak he also played a series of games against rubeira (who is also a strong 2100-2200 player) and won all his games. He reached 2500+ and had this streak not because he was cheating but because he was simply too good. Since then I believe his rating has corrected to 2390 levels and he has become inactive in Fog of War.
I don't know who all have been banned along with me (higher rated players seem to be the target). Before I was banned, I saw wikivicky account reaching close to 2200 levels and then suddenly removed from the leaderboard within a short gap of playing a game. I don't know if it was due to ban for cheating or some other technical reason or a misunderstanding at my end. But I have played a few games with him (including wins and losses) and didn't find anything suspicious, if it is the former.
We are only creating a fear of cheating. I have played 6,000+ games in Fog of War and I have played with almost all the players that have been in the leaderboard. I didn't suspect anyone of cheating. If I lost to someone, I thought I lost fair and square. We are only encouraging mass reporting and ban of innocent players. I don't know which is worse in outcome, or more in quantity - players who might be cheating still playing or innocent players getting banned. Chess.com team should try to prevent cheating (like trying to find a solution for the second way) rather than banning players and should ban players ONLY and ONLY if there is concrete proof and cheating can be concluded with 100% certainty.
With respect to my ban, I appeal to the admins to have it removed. Along with my personal appeal, I would like the chess.com team to deliberate - Are we really trying to solve a significant problem? Or are we creating another problem?
Through this post, I hope I can be heard by the chess.com variants team. I am also personally reaching out to players with whom I have played or interacted frequently and sharing this post.
Vaibhav Saxena
My conversation with Bang (chess.com support team) -
vsaxena: I am not able to connect to Chess Variants
Bang: Hi Vsaxena,
Thank you for reaching out! I'm Bang with the Chess.com support team.
I'm sorry you're having trouble connecting to Chess.com Variants. I'm happy to look into this for you.
I'd like to collect more information to understand the issue better. Particularly about your device.
1 Are you using a browser on a computer or a mobile device?
2 Which device are you using (Samsung/iPhone,PC,Mac etc)
3 Are you using Data or Wifi on your device?
4 Are you accessing the site via a VPN?
5 Kindly describe what happens when you connect to https://www.chess.com/variants
If you have more than one account, your account is likely blocked. Please list down all usernames you're aware of so we can have it investigated. You'll also want to close them beforehand.
I'll be looking out for your response! Once I have it, I’ll be able to troubleshoot further
Bang
vsaxena: Hi Bang,
Thanks for your reply. Please find responses to your questions below
1 Are you using a browser on a computer or a mobile device?
Response - I tried using both laptop and mobile device and both had the same issue.
2 Which device are you using (Samsung/iPhone,PC,Mac etc)
Response - I am using a google pixel phone and windows OS in laptop
3 Are you using Data or Wifi on your device?
Response - I have tried in both phone data and home wifi
4 Are you accessing the site via a VPN?
Response - No I am not accessing the site via a VPN
5 Kindly describe what happens when you connect to https://www.chess.com/variants
Response - It shows Connecting with a refreshing arrow sign
Also I have always had only one account.
Bang: Hi Vaibhav,
Thanks for your response. I'm sorry it took me long to respond as I had to reach out to the Variants team to investigate your case further.
It appears that you've been banned from Variants permanently for having multiple accounts. I actually found a second account before my previous response but I wanted to give you a chance to tell us about it. The Variants team found 6 other accounts.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I really wanted to help you get back to your variant games.
Please let me know if you have any questions.
Warm regards,
Bang
vsaxena: Hi Bang,
Thanks for highlighting the issue. There must be some mistake as I have only one account and have been playing the variants only through one account. Can you please ask the Variants team to list out the 6(!) accounts. Also this action was due to a complaint from someone or direct action by the Variants team?
Thanks for your support till now. I would want the ban from variants to be removed as soon as possible as I have only one account.
Thanks and regards,
Vaibhav
Bang: Hi Vaibhav,
Thanks for your response. Since you asked to get this investigated further, our Variants team looked into this further and have concluded that your account will be kept closed for cheating in Fog of War. They did not disclose the details but it will be banned permanently.
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I wish I would've found a way to get you back in Variants, But cheating is something they do not take lightly.
Warm regards,
Bang
vsaxena: Hi Bang,
To start with I must appreciate your support in this matter. While I understand the Variants team's objective to curtail cheating, I simply cannot understand how they concluded that I cheated in any manner in Fog of War. I challenge the Variants team to find even one game out of the 6,000+ games (which includes several losses) that I have played in Fog of War where I would have cheated along with reasons. My rating has fluctuated from 2300 to 2100 and back to 2300 many times. Fog of War is the variant, which I love the most and I have found many online friends by playing Fog of War (who can vouch for my integrity) and even other variants like chaturaji. I am really disappointed that I am not allowed to play further. I can easily create another account (I don't know which other accounts the Variants team is talking about as I have only one account for close to a decade now through which I have been playing regular chess and now variants for past 1-2 years!) and get back to 2300 levels as I have confidence over my fair abilities. But I want my account to be restored for variants as it is a question on my integrity. The Variants team must disclose full details on why I was banned permanently.
Looking forward to your response.
Thanks and regards,
Vaibhav
not sure what other players can do in this situation?
if they dont change their decision just create new account)
nobody saying you are cheater but chesscom team,same time no details and they cant even say what 6 accounts and explain nothing to you
Hello, I'm Zelfmat76 and I'm an active player on FOW. I've frequently played Vaibhav and I also watch his (and other's) games with interest regularly. Maybe Obester means me if he sees the 'spectator' joining in....
. I can imagine that someone feels uncomfortable by that idea, but I think that that is his problem. Maybe you should hide the 'spectators' on the screen, then it's not bothering you anymore.
The idea of Vaibhav cheating in our games never even crossed my mind and that also counts for other topplayers. He is just one of the better players with a great feeling for the game. Although offcourse I cannot say for 100% that he never cheats, I simply cannot imagine that he does and his games, as far as I witnessed, never give any reason to think so.
That one can win many straight games in a row is very good, but maybe not that special. For instance: what is an 'experienced opponent'? Someone who played many games? I think Javert means experienced as in 'quality'. But is 1600 a good player? 1800? Don't forget that Vaibhav in that case still outrates his opponents with 500 points and even when there is more luck in the game than in a normal chess game, he is simply too good for them. I also play against 1600-players if there is no other player available. I prefer to play the highest rated opponents, but I don't want to wait so long to play another game. In the rapid-section it is even worse: I can hardly find anyone above 1600 to play against. So, yes, there are players who play only games to gain 1 point or less. But if I loose I loose sometimes more than 30 points (there are some strong 1400-1500-players who seem to keep their rating very low on purpose).
I don't know how long my winning streak is, but I'm not surprised if Vaibhav could win 50 in a row if the plays 1600-1800 opponents. I must say that he is not too shy to play against the topplayers.
Then there is another thing: I used to play on a site where the level was not so high (normal chess). I was one of the strongest players there (that says enough ). An 1800 player there would think of himself a being a strong player, but in reality he was worth a few hundreds of points less (FIDE-rating). So I sometimes got accused of cheating, because how is it possible that the 1800 player could loose?? And how can I have such a high rating? They overestimate themselves very much. I have the idea that they are often young kids of 12-15 years old who have to learn a lot. I think that also happens here: if they cannot beat you then your are a cheater they think.
I hope I can see Vaibhav back soon on FOW!
guys you write so much,can you shorten messages pls) thx
Mar 1, 2022
0
#14
I know Vaibhav is an incredibly good Fog of War player, not only because of his rating but also because of his in-depth knowledge of the game which he has graciously shared with me over the last year or more. Such knowledge could not have been gained by cheating. He has played thousands of games! Like all other FoW players, his rating has gone up and down. There must be some mistake as I can find no motive for him to compromise his integrity. Very sad indeed.
+1, I think Vaibhav has been a fair player on fog since day 1
Hope to see you back on the games
Mar 3, 2022
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#16
First thing first, My old ID name I used to play was "JackAce001". Deleted that account because my moves became too predictable, also FOG is addictive so wanted a break from chess.
I had played some 20000+ game from my old ID and 2000+ from this one(email is the same). Played with Vaibhav aka Vsaxena many times, lost some and won some, but never ever thought of him being cheating comes through my mind. Though I had came across few players being cheating by spectating, and reported.
I myself been alleged of cheating on few occasions even by one 2000+ rating player, I always asked them to report me to chess.com, because I had faith in their process. But finding out that they have banned Vsaxena for cheating, is hard to agree with. I can surely vouch for his passion and integrity for the game and ask chess.com to investigate again.
I have played with almost all the players from the leaderboard now and before they are all very good players. And I am sure they have had played with Vaibhav and they might have similar opinion as mine.
Hope to see Vsaxena in the FOG and in the leaderboard again.
Mar 21, 2022
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#17
Well Personally, I never felt Vsaxena cheating while playing him. As everyone know that I(JackAce) have played so many games, I have encountered with few cheaters(by spectating from other IDs) as well. So up till now I thought as I will know when a person is cheating.
I also understand that chess.com must have found something. After reading rune_raider post and messages, I am not sure about V cheated or not. But one thing is clear from his efforts, that he want to play these interesting variants.
Hoping that both parties to reach to some conclusion. Hoping best for everyone.
Now I believe the 109 streak refers to the last streak before I was banned. Anyone who has played FOW at top level would know that good streaks are not practically impossible and are very much possible. I can consistently and consecutively beat players in 1800-2000 range. Throw in a few wins against 2100-2200 and you will get a good streak. It is not that all these games were against 2100-2200 players. You see any series of games played consecutively with 2100-2200 player, you will find both wins and losses.
Please don't use words like "well established" and "100% safe" when the reason for ban is based on statistics and analytics and no hard evidence. I could have just sat quiet and nobody would have known that I was banned, but I have come out in public because I know I have always played fair.
Statistics and analytics have been used to conclude that I have cheated and to ban me. But I wonder any cues/statistics/analytics were used to reason against my ban?
1. I don't know if chess.com has a system to detect spectators in past games but there were no unusual spectators in any of my games including the last streak. Any spectator, if there was in any of the games, can be easily traced as other players some of which would be other top players. In fact before this streak some time back, I was playing a game against yahyashahid and I myself became uncomfortable when fizashahid came as a specator (whom I thought would be a relative). I asked about the spectator in the chat (you can see in the archive) and after some moves, the spectator went away. Though I did lose the game in the end. (On a separate note, in of the chaturaji games just before I was banned, a player was prompting moves to another player. I was telling him that this is not allowed and one must play fairly).
2. Till date, I have not been provided which those 6 accounts are. Also did the chess.com check the login activity of these 6 accounts as well? Were they active when I was playing FOW?
3. If somehow, you can rule out that there was no cheating by spectator involved, the other method is ridiculous. Believe me, nobody would be even aware (including me) that such method of cheating even existed before this post!
4. Last couple of months I was very active in chess variants and FOW. Just before the last streak I had multiple times reached 2250 and then back to 2150 levels. I used to easily play 10 - 20 games in a session. I don't have access to my games but the first game of this 109 streak would not have been the first game of the session. So you think after losing a few games, I would have decided that now is the time to use the html hack!!
5. Again I don't have access to my games otherwise I would have given you more concrete reasons of me not cheating, but have the chess.com team looked at those 109 or 132 games or they just concluded that such a streak is statistically impossible? I am sure in many of these games I would be losing and only won because my opponent hung his/her king/queen/major piece. In fact even in the game against Ivan Popov (one of the last few games in the streak), I was losing and only won because he hung his queen at h6.
6. I have been playing FOW for almost 2 years. Have you looked at my past trends? 2330 is not even my peak and I have reached 2375 1-2 years back and I am sure I would have had multiple such streaks in the past. I have been to 2300+ multiple times and then gone to below 2200 levels. These trends don't suggest someone is cheating.
7. Has the chess.com team looked at my games in other variants as well? Antichess was the only variant that I played as a kid and played a lot (apart from doubles) and it was a rage in India (Ask any Indian player, in fact I was thinking of reaching out to Rakesh Kulkarni, Director chess.com India regarding this matter as I have played a lot of OTB chess with him). It is well analyzed today with most of my games being same/similar openings. Once you get to forced win situation the games will be short. I have been told that it is very easy to cheat in other variants like chess960, blindfold etc. as well. Has the chess.com team looked at these games as well? (Perhaps your 95 would have become lower and not higher, even though being 95% certain itself is questionable!) My FIDE rating is 2166 (I had reached this when I was 12 year old and haven't played much thereafter). You would find my games at these levels with lots of mistakes. Easy to conclude that these were played fairly. So I will not cheat in these variants, in which it is very easy to cheat and I will use HTML hack to cheat in FOW, a variant in which I have been in the leaderboard for last 2 years! Few variants like atomic and 3check where again it is very easy to cheat, I have not played much because I didn't develop the interest or was average.
I have spent a lot of time analyzing and improving, which all seems to have gone waste with this ban. I used to not only analyze my games but also games of other top players and see what patterns they follow and what I can do to beat them. I was one of the first few players to play 1. b4 1-2 years back against top players like rubik87, luizzy etc who would always play c5. When I saw that lazphy would often play 1....c5, 2.....Qb6 and 3.....Qf6; I played 1. c4, 2. Nc3 and 3. Ne4 with him and won his queen (though I lost the game! and this game also happened just before my streak!). I don't know whether chess.com team who feel that 109 streak is statistically impossible themselves would have spent any time on getting better at FOW or understanding the nuances of FOW. This episode has left a very bad taste in me and I have kind of lost interest now.
I saw rune_raider's post of offering to clear my name by recording my face and screen and would thank him for this. I have created a new account vsaxena_youtube, and all my games would be uploaded in the channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHZAP9C36riNAzGt7IBkUxA. I will also try to do some analysis during the game/immediately after the game. Always thought that there is hardly any material on FOW (which Adickes was trying to bridge) but a lot of potential to build. Hopefully this may create some material, if I am allowed.
Also as suggested by rune_raider, I will also message his superior for their permission after this post. I am doing this to only clear my name but honestly I don't think I will enjoy as before. I am not sure I will be active in variants once I am back to the top of the leaderboard and would have cleared my name. Like I said, this episode has left a very bad taste in me.
I would also like to thank the players who came out to support me here and in direct messages.
Thanks rune_raider for your support.
<In my own opinion, that is a good point.
https://www.chess.com/variants/fog-of-war/game/24681929/80/1 You also dropped the exchange on c6. You made many mistakes, your play was very natural, and throughout your history you have always demonstrated authentic play.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This may strongly help clear your name.>
Unfortunately I can't access this game or any of my games including the 109/132 win streak otherwise I could have provided more examples.
*NOTE* - I have removed my original post discussing the cheating that happens occasionally in Fog of War.
The reason is, this thread has devolved from a constructive and general discussion about cheating into a free vsaxena from chess jail! rally--vsaxena being a guy banned from variants by the admins for alleged sextuple-accounting and cheating in some way (according to him).
I'm not an admin, nor is anyone else in this discussion, as far as I am aware. None of us possess inside knowledge about the admins' decisions. No one here in the thread ever mentioned vsaxena or accused him of anything. No one here has any idea whether he got what he deserved--including the homies he recruited to post character references below.
So it's unclear why vsaxena chose to bless us with a gothic-novel-length screed proclaiming his innocence and integrity. It seems misdirected and bizarre, a discussion for another thread of its own, or maybe a personal anger journal.
I don't want my bit of research and this thread to draw attention to the histrionics that have intruded here, or lend legitimacy to them. The discussion about cheating in Fog of War will move to another time and another place.