Is this the most central truth in the Genesis creation account?

Sort:
tbwp10

Saw this quote today.  Might be interesting to explore more in depth how Walton comes to this conclusion.  But first, I was curious to hear people's thoughts on this claim.  Agree?  Disagree?  Other thoughts?

"The most central truth to the creation account is that this world is a place for God's presence."---John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate 

MainframeSupertasker

This world perhaps is no longer a place for God's presence since the Fall. But maybe I disagree. The most important truth of Genesis is that God gave man hope after the Fall that He will send His Son(Gen3:15)

Yes indeed, the earth is a center of attention. happy.png

stevetuck

I would disagree. Walton's statement seems to be an attempt to offer a vague or minimal statement about the creation account as something we can all agree. [When opening up a discussion it's always good to establish common ground, even if that common ground is minimal.]
Yes, "this world is a place for God's presence", but God exists everywhere all at once. God didn't make this world to give Him a place to exist. Rather, God created this world as a place where we could exist and relate to Him.
I would say the most central truth of the creation account, and is something basic to the Gospel (Good News of Salvation through Jesus) is:
The Universe and everything in it, was made by God, who created us (humans) in His image, as the pinnacle of His Creative work so that we could enjoy a special and unique relation with Him. 

Kjvav

2 +2 = 4

5 + 4 = 9

8 x 2 = 16

3 - 3 = 0

 15/3 =5

10 + 12 = 22

   Which of these is the most central truth?

   I reject the unsaid statement behind the question.

MainframeSupertasker

Oh yes I missed that. Thanks.

It's not about the most central truth. It's about the most important truth. All of God's words are pure and God is not a man that He could lie.

MainframeSupertasker

Some of the important truths of the Genesis chapters are:

Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:26-28

Genesis 2:2 (This is why the Sabbath day commandment is important)
Genesis 2:24 (Jesus quoted it Himself)

Genesis 3:15 (The Gospel message) [[The most important]]

 

tbwp10
Kjvav wrote:

2 +2 = 4

5 + 4 = 9

8 x 2 = 16

3 - 3 = 0

 15/3 =5

10 + 12 = 22

   Which of these is the most central truth?

   I reject the unsaid statement behind the question.

Is your point, "central" as in "middle" or that all truths are equally important and there can't be a central, main, primary, most important truth?

If the latter, then, I would submit that not all truths are of equal importance in the creation account or even the Bible, and we already know what the most important, central truth of the Bible is :-)

"Now, I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you .....For I delivered to you as of *first importance* that which I also received.  That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.  And that he was buried, and that he was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures.  And that he appeared to Cephas (Peter) and then to the twelve...."  1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-5

We can change the question if you prefer to something like this: What is the common or main, primary, central, overarching theme, statement, message, idea or take-away?

MainframeSupertasker

Yeah that's what I was saying happy.png There are all truths because they are spoken by God. And there are important truths within the set of truths.

tbwp10
MainframeSupertasker wrote:

Some of the important truths of the Genesis chapters are:

Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:26-28

Genesis 2:2 (This is why the Sabbath day commandment is important)
Genesis 2:24 (Jesus quoted it Himself)

Genesis 3:15 (The Gospel message) [[The most important]]

 

I probably should have clarified what was being referred to by creation account.  My bad.  The statement was referring to Genesis 1:1 to 2:3.  What would your answer be with regard to Genesis 1:1-2:3?

MainframeSupertasker

No, it's my bad tongue.png I intentionally went on to write more haha.

That would be........ 1:1! (The most important in creation account)

Kjvav
MainframeSupertasker wrote:

Oh yes I missed that. Thanks.

It's not about the most central truth. It's about the most important truth. All of God's words are pure and God is not a man that He could lie.

   Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceed that proceedeth  out of the mouth of God.

MainframeSupertasker

Amen happy.png

Kjvav
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:

2 +2 = 4

5 + 4 = 9

8 x 2 = 16

3 - 3 = 0

 15/3 =5

10 + 12 = 22

   Which of these is the most central truth?

   I reject the unsaid statement behind the question.

Is your point, "central" as in "middle" or that all truths are equally important and there can't be a central, main, primary, most important truth?

If the latter, then, I would submit that not all truths are of equal importance in the creation account or even the Bible, and we already know what the most important, central truth of the Bible is :-)

"Now, I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you .....For I delivered to you as of *first importance* where do you get this insertion from? It’s not in my Bible. that which I also received.  That Christ died for our sins on the third day, according to the Scriptures.  And that he was buried, and that he was raised, according to the Scriptures.  And that he appeared to Cephas (Peter) and then to the twelve...."  1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-5

We can change the question if you prefer to something like this: What is the common or main, primary, central, overarching theme, statement, message, idea or take-away?

 

MainframeSupertasker

1 Corinthians 15

Kjvav
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:

2 +2 = 4

5 + 4 = 9

8 x 2 = 16

3 - 3 = 0

 15/3 =5

10 + 12 = 22

   Which of these is the most central truth?

   I reject the unsaid statement behind the question.

Is your point, "central" as in "middle" or that all truths are equally important and there can't be a central, main, primary, most important truth?

If the latter, then, I would submit that not all truths are of equal importance in the creation account or even the Bible, and we already know what the most important, central truth of the Bible is :-)

"Now, I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you .....For I delivered to you as of *first importance* that which I also received.  That Christ died for our sins on the third day, according to the Scriptures.  And that he was buried, and that he was raised, according to the Scriptures.  And that he appeared to Cephas (Peter) and then to the twelve...."  1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-5

We can change the question if you prefer to something like this: What is the common or main, primary, central, overarching theme, statement, message, idea or take-away?

  As I said in post #4, I reject the unsaid implication in the original post, which I believe is “God loves me, and everything else is details that I don’t have to believe”. To look in a passage and declare that I know what God was driving at, and that he shouldn’t have clouded the issue with so many unnecessary and doubtful “facts” is to blast away at the belief in the Word of God, which is the anchor and foundation of our faith.

   This is the thinking that leads to denial of the Genesis account of Creation and assigns it to allegory, or myths, or necessary lies to make the cavemen of that day understand the “central truth” that God loves them.

   That is why I said I reject the unwritten implication behind the question. I don’t wish to hold anyone’s hand an go merrily traipsing down that trail.

Kjvav
MainframeSupertasker wrote:

1 Corinthians 15

MFS, I understand that the passage he cited is from 1 Corinthians 15, but my question was where did he get the “first importance” insertion from? It is not in the scriptures and I couldn’t even find it in any of the corrupt translations. It is adding to the Word of God, it’s simply not there. Maybe he isn’t trying to imply that the passage is written that way and I am just misunderstanding him? I hope so.

tbwp10
stevetuck wrote:

I would disagree. Walton's statement seems to be an attempt to offer a vague or minimal statement about the creation account as something we can all agree. [When opening up a discussion it's always good to establish common ground, even if that common ground is minimal.]
Yes, "this world is a place for God's presence", but God exists everywhere all at once. God didn't make this world to give Him a place to exist. Rather, God created this world as a place where we could exist and relate to Him.
I would say the most central truth of the creation account, and is something basic to the Gospel (Good News of Salvation through Jesus) is:
The Universe and everything in it, was made by God, who created us (humans) in His image, as the pinnacle of His Creative work so that we could enjoy a special and unique relation with Him. 

Great points, and Walton's statement is not meant to say that God is not omnipresent--God certainly is.  But I see how I messed up on this and need to provide more context, so I will do so in my next post

tbwp10

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.   In hindsight I see I should have provided more context for Walton's statement.  Sorry about that.  That's on me.  Let me try to unpack this better:

(1) The pinnacle of creation that all the days are leading up to is the creation of humans as God's image-bearers on Day 6.  However, this is still not the big, culminating event of creation.

(2) The big, culminating, "icing on the cake," "main event" is actually at the conclusion when God rests on the 7th day.

(3) The 7th day seems anti-climactic to us because of the casual way we use the word "rest," but the ancient reader would have immediately understood the significance.

(4) First, the Hebrew word *sabat* ("rest," where we also get *sabbath*) refers to a stopping or ceasing, not due to tiredness or to relax, but a cessation of activity, often in relation to the resolution of a problem or crisis.  Think "rest" vs. "unrest," like how a king rests after defeating his enemies.  The king is not taking a break, but stopping/ceasing the activity of establishing his kingdom and making it secure, so that now he can be about the the normal, regular business of maintaining and ruling his kingdom.

(5) In Genesis 1:1-2:3, the problem in need of resolution is the state of disorder and chaos (described in Gen. 1:2) that God works to bring order, purpose, and function to.  After establishing order, God can now "rest" from this activity and begin the normal, regular task of ruling and lording over it.  

(6) We could compare this to the hard-work of building and then organizing and furnishing a house, and then "resting" afterwards; not in the sense of leisure, but in the sense of "Now that that's done, we can get on with life" and start living in our dwelling and place of residence.

(7) Similarly, we could also think of it like the building and furnishing of the temple, where upon finishing, we can then "rest" from that task and finally begin the regular duties associated with temple sacrifice and worship.  

(8) MOST IMPORTANTLY, now, that the temple's been built, furnished and dedicated, the presence of God can now finally take up residence and come *rest* in the Holy of Hollies as God's place of dwelling in the midst of His people.  

(9) In fact, this is how they actually did see it, which brings us to a KEY POINT: the ancient reader would have immediately understood the significance of God "resting" on the 7th day, because *divine rest* could only mean one thing: God taking up residence, coming to rest, and dwelling in a temple.  That is, in fact, what temples were for: divine resting places--not for relaxation, leisure, or due to tiredness--but in the sense of coming to rest, take up residence, dwell in the midst, begin ruling.

(10) In other words, the ancient reader would have immediately understood Genesis 1:1-2:3 to be an account of how God brought order to chaos and established a working, functioning, ordered cosmos, and then ceased from this (i.e., "rested") in order to take up residence, and inhabit His creation as a cosmic "temple" place of dwelling.  

(11) The temple, the cosmos ("heaven and earth"), creation, and divine rest and dwelling were all closely connected (and the 7-day creation account is also patterned after the 7-day temple inauguration ceremony).  For example, we see these connections in Isaiah 66:1-2:

This is what the Lord says:

"Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool.  Where is the house you will build for me?  Where will my *resting* place be?  Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?"

(12) After the 7-day creation, God then goes on to establish a special "sacred space" for His presence with humanity in the garden of Eden.  There are so many temple/tabernacle images/symbols in the garden of Eden account that further reinforce this entire connection of Genesis 1-3 to the tabernacle/temple and God's dwelling place.

*All of this brings deeper meaning and significance to verses like "Holy, holy, holy, the earth is filled with God's glory [i.e., presence]."

*And that is why Walton says, "The most central truth to the creation account is that this world is a place for God's presence."

When I learned about all this, the Genesis account took on far greater meaning and significance--more than I realized it had.  I also saw this same uniflying thread throughout the Bible that goes from creation to the garden of Eden, to the Exodus to the tabernacle to the temple to the Word (Jesus) that became flesh and "tabernacled" among us to the ripping of the temple veil at the crucifixion to the end of time in Revelation where we see the "sacred space" of Eden restored with the new creation and a new heaven and a new earth.  And it all seems to go back to: The PRESENCE OF GOD--how it was established, how we lost it, what God did to restore it, and how we can always have it forever and ever (Amen)

*However, you may feel differently, so feel free to weigh-in :-)

tbwp10
Kjvav wrote:
MainframeSupertasker wrote:

1 Corinthians 15

MFS, I understand that the passage he cited is from 1 Corinthians 15, but my question was where did he get the “first importance” insertion from? It is not in the scriptures and I couldn’t even find it in any of the corrupt translations. It is adding to the Word of God, it’s simply not there. Maybe he isn’t trying to imply that the passage is written that way and I am just misunderstanding him? I hope so.

No worries.  I didn't add to the Bible.  It's there.  Here's the actual Greek for 1 Corinthians 15:3.  The specific word is *protois* which can be translated as foremost or of first importance.  The Greek prefix "pro-" is where we get words like "proceed," and "proactive." 

tbwp10
Kjvav wrote:
tbwp10 wrote:
Kjvav wrote:

2 +2 = 4

5 + 4 = 9

8 x 2 = 16

3 - 3 = 0

 15/3 =5

10 + 12 = 22

   Which of these is the most central truth?

   I reject the unsaid statement behind the question.

Is your point, "central" as in "middle" or that all truths are equally important and there can't be a central, main, primary, most important truth?

If the latter, then, I would submit that not all truths are of equal importance in the creation account or even the Bible, and we already know what the most important, central truth of the Bible is :-)

"Now, I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you .....For I delivered to you as of *first importance* that which I also received.  That Christ died for our sins on the third day, according to the Scriptures.  And that he was buried, and that he was raised, according to the Scriptures.  And that he appeared to Cephas (Peter) and then to the twelve...."  1 Corinthians 15:1, 3-5

We can change the question if you prefer to something like this: What is the common or main, primary, central, overarching theme, statement, message, idea or take-away?

  As I said in post #4, I reject the unsaid implication in the original post, which I believe is “God loves me, and everything else is details that I don’t have to believe”. To look in a passage and declare that I know what God was driving at, and that he shouldn’t have clouded the issue with so many unnecessary and doubtful “facts” is to blast away at the belief in the Word of God, which is the anchor and foundation of our faith.

   This is the thinking that leads to denial of the Genesis account of Creation and assigns it to allegory, or myths, or necessary lies to make the cavemen of that day understand the “central truth” that God loves them.

   That is why I said I reject the unwritten implication behind the question. I don’t wish to hold anyone’s hand an go merrily traipsing down that trail.

No worries, there's nothing going on like what you describe above.  Nothing nefarious.  No traipsing.  You're actually reading more things into the statement yourself that aren't actually there.