Developing A New Piece: "The Pope" (Guards' and Bishops' Movement)

I don't know if this has been made already, and sorry if it is, but I have an idea for a peice called "The Pope"

how it works is K (but not royal) +B= Pope

So in this position, the black bishop will represent the pope

this position would be checkmate for white:

because the pope attacks the black king, and the white king guards all of black's escape squares

Ah! The promoted Shogi Bishop. (which formal name escapes me at the moment; I will look it up, once I fix a few loose ends in my recent diagram of AlexanderMatos's and my match.)

I always loved that piece. It's cool!

A bishop is worth 3, and a non-royal king (or guard) is also worth about 3. But some of the attack squares are redundant so its overall value is probably around 4.5? (fills a gap between minor pieces and rook). I like pieces that aren't too strong, so I think this is a cool piece.

It's also interesting because it essentially makes the bishop non-color bound.

Would you like to play a game (I can probably start in a few days). I would use two popes instead of the witch and guard.

Do you think this helmet can be used as a graphic?

I’d personally value this piece at 5.2-.3

Good idea though. Simple and creative, which not an easy combo to get.

Considering it from the perspective that this piece is a queen that’s has its rook powers diminished to one 1 square, and a rook is 5 points, it shouldn’t lose 5 points in value. 

I agree with Marks that he should be approximately 5.2 points ideally. But, my reason is rather different.

A Rook's 5 points is owed to its infinite range on an 8x8 board. Adjacent orthogonal reach itself would probably be no more than 2 points; as it doesn't have the same effective power as the Knight's reaches. 

A Bishop is less than 5 points owed to that fact that he is color-bound. Otherwise, he too would probably be 5 points.

(You all already know these things, but I thought it important to state it as a preface to my explanation. haha)

----------------

An 8x10 board has more squares. The board is larger, and infinite pieces may gain at least small amount of pointage. A Rook on an 8x10 board is probably about 5.5 points; perhaps 6. A Bishop is probably about 3.125 or 3.25 points. (Diagonal doesn't help him directly reach the extended squares any better.) A Knight on 8x10 is either devalued from 2.875 points to 2.75, owed to the fact that now it takes longer to reach one other end of the slightly larger board, or it simply stays 2.875 points. 

An orthogonal adjacent reach would be sligtly less valueable on the slightly larger 8.x10 board, so I'd place it at no more than 1.875

lower estimate: 3.125+1.75 = 4.875

higher estimate: 3.25+1.875 = 5.125

The Pope, in my opinion, then, would be between 4.875 and 5.125 points. Adding another .25 point for the fact that he is no longer color-bound like his demoted Bishop counterpart, the final approximation of points I would assign him is 5.125 to 5.375 points.

very mathmatical rreasoning, I would have to agree that it has more value than a rook.

Lol I don't know why I asked that. Of course it's an 8x8 board.

:/

Loolz <3

eh?

One analysis places the Guard (non-checkable King) at around 3 pts., not 4. Makes sense. On an 8x8 board, that's  as powerful as the Knight. (~2.875 pts.). Knight can reach 8 squares in close range that the Guard can't; and likewise for the Guard.

I think many your guy's assessment is based on the rationale that the first square in range contains the most power. I suppose in some cases, this is true. On the other hand, I argue that the bulk power is generally in how long the rang is. (A 2-range diagonal is not threatening to the King in the way a 6-range is. To say that most of the power being in range 1 makes a 2-range similarly as powerful as a 6-range is simply in my view, inaccruate.)

On another lesser note, one must remember that we humans prize orthogonal pathways over diagonals; we're naturally programmed to see orthogonal slightly more easily than we see diagonals. Other than not being color-bound, this is mainly why we'll generally prefer the Rook over Bishop every time; because it's 'easier' to play with than he is.

With that said, when you have only orthogonal adjacent move/capture and not diagonal, that's about 3/5 or 2/3 the Guard's 3 points, which is 2 or 1.8 points. Adding the Bishop's 3 or 3.25 points, That comes out to be, as I originally contended, 4.8 to 5.25. Add another .125 pt. for colorbound escape, and we again get 4.925 to 5.375 points.

I think 6.5 points is a bit too generous. He's not 1.25 to 1.5 pts more powerful than the Rook. The Rook is Orthogonal infinitely, something which, again, humans will always value over colorbound Bishops. I don't think adding 1 orthogonal square (to infinite diagonal) it going to flip the favor around so drastically.

Yes, I would like to play a game. Unfortunately I'll have to wait 2-3 days before we start (I'm having an especially busy weekend).

The discussion about piece value, and Mark's comment "Simple and creative, which not an easy combo to get" especially makes me want to try this piece.

I'll set up the opening board (using the graphic I showed above) and get the game started by Tuesday. The first game with a new piece should be not-rated (just to make sure there are no ambiguities in the rules).

If the game goes well, maybe some rated games later on.

It will be exciting.

Ok, I have two ideas for a starting position. Let me know which one you prefer. The pope is represented by the "helmet". (Notice in both cases the kings and queens are in their normal "classical" positions, because the rest of the board is symmetrical).

Version 1: (popes on files b and i)

Version 2: (popes on files d and g)

I prefer version 2 because a pope is stronger than a bishop, so they deserve to sit closer to the king and queen. The subordinate bishops are moved to files b and i. I think this looks better, and believe it should work fine for a game.

Let me know what you think. Hope to start tomorrow.

Or another idea is like version 2, but the knights and bishops are switched. Then the bishops and popes are next to each other. (That also makes the outside three pieces arranged the same as normal chess (R, N, B ... B N R).

^^^ I like this idea: version 3. =)

I agree with both BattleChess and MISTER_McCHESS. Version 3 is probably the most interesting because it stays faithful to keeping RNB as the outer three pieces (same as classical). And with the pope and bishop next to each other we have two pieces which attack on adjacent diagonals (one of them able to shift a square over)! This could be interesting. I'll start the game tomorrow using Ver 3.

Yes, sorry for the delay. There's someone in my family who has become ill, and it's slowing me down a bit. I hope to catch up on all my games by the end of today. Please wait just till end of today. Thanks.