Notation Rule Question

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ChessMasterGS

I was playing in a classical USCF game today at a tournament, and my opponent called me out for writing down a move, crossing it out (I realized the move was a blunder), writing another move down, and then making it. 
The TD gave my opponent 2 extra minutes as a penalty and after I won the game I checked and there is indeed a rule on what I did with my notation. 

(In case it’s not clear, look at the paragraph above this ^)
Has anybody ever witnessed a game where somebody wrote down entire lines for a position? It must’ve happened at least once if this rule exists…

iceblastor

That's really weird. sometimes I actually write down the next 3-4 moves before I actually make the move because they're all forced moves unless they resign or just decide to get mated...never had this issue, but I'm happy that you won. Though, I genuinely do not see anything wrong with it but...if it's the TD, that's just messed up.----in your case, what happens if it's just the wrong notation (like you really just wrote the wrong thing), would that rule still stand? Like what if I wrote Kg0? lol

Martin_Stahl

It's considered note taking and against the rules. Usually a warning is issued the first time but that's up to the TD. The problem is that you wrote down a move that you didn't end up making.

While it is allowed to write the move first, it's best to write after the move is made.

MasterMatthew52

Yeah, do it after you actually made the move. People are really keen when it comes to snagging extra time on these rules. I've been there before 😅.

ImBrianFellows

I've never understood why people write down moves before they make them. Why not do it on your opponent's time rather than yours?

MasterMatthew52
ChessMasterGS wrote:

I was playing in a classical USCF game today at a tournament, and my opponent called me out for writing down a move, crossing it out (I realized the move was a blunder), writing another move down, and then making it. 
The TD gave my opponent 2 extra minutes as a penalty and after I won the game I checked and there is indeed a rule on what I did with my notation. 
(In case it’s not clear, look at the paragraph above this ^)
Has anybody ever witnessed a game where somebody wrote down entire lines for a position? It must’ve happened at least once if this rule exists…

I've seen people penalized for writing the remaining time on their clock because it's considered "note taking" which is ridiculous since it's part of the state of the game. I've also seen people penalized for adding "?" to their notation which I suppose makes more sense. Annotate after the game to be safe and try to remember which moves you spent the most time on to avoid penalties.

Also depends on the player you face. Some don't care and just want to play chess, and then some will do everything they can to get a small penalty imposed on the other player.

Me personally, I just want to play chess and won't make a big deal about something that is blatantly cheating. I've only ever called over the TD when a spectator started reminding my opponent to hit the clock after they moved. Other than that, I'm not going to throw a fit because someone added a "?" to their notation. How does that affect me?

pawnjarts

Noting the clock times and draw offers is okay.

MasterMatthew52
pawnjarts wrote:

Noting the clock times and draw offers is okay.

That's good to know. I've always avoided it because of that incident a few years ago. Guess that TD wasn't really qualified.

Ziryab
MasterMatthew52 wrote:
pawnjarts wrote:

Noting the clock times and draw offers is okay.

That's good to know. I've always avoided it because of that incident a few years ago. Guess that TD wasn't really qualified.

Certainly not. Best plan for players is to learn the rules and protest when a TD gets it wrong.
TDs are human and can make errors, but that one is quite basic.

modderman8
ChessMasterGS wrote:

I was playing in a classical USCF game today at a tournament, and my opponent called me out for writing down a move, crossing it out (I realized the move was a blunder), writing another move down, and then making it. 
The TD gave my opponent 2 extra minutes as a penalty and after I won the game I checked and there is indeed a rule on what I did with my notation. 
(In case it’s not clear, look at the paragraph above this ^)
Has anybody ever witnessed a game where somebody wrote down entire lines for a position? It must’ve happened at least once if this rule exists…

As a TD myself, I can say that this IS in fact against the rules, as you are required to make your move before writing it down, because it CAN be considered using written notes to your advantage during a game. I think it's a bit of a stupid rule, but I can understand why someone would be upset if their opponent wrote down a move, analyzed for 15 minutes, and then changed their move because they found something better. As far as I know, the rule was more so because of electronic scoresheets, which would allow someone to look at the position if that move were to be made, but it's not really an issue otherwise. If someone claims that their opponent does this, I as a TD would have to penalize the player, but I'll rarely forfeit them (which is considered a reasonable response) unless I have reason to do otherwise. Hope this helps!

Ziryab
modderman8 wrote:
ChessMasterGS wrote:

I was playing in a classical USCF game today at a tournament, and my opponent called me out for writing down a move, crossing it out (I realized the move was a blunder), writing another move down, and then making it. 
The TD gave my opponent 2 extra minutes as a penalty and after I won the game I checked and there is indeed a rule on what I did with my notation. 
(In case it’s not clear, look at the paragraph above this ^)
Has anybody ever witnessed a game where somebody wrote down entire lines for a position? It must’ve happened at least once if this rule exists…

As a TD myself, I can say that this IS in fact against the rules, as you are required to make your move before writing it down, because it CAN be considered using written notes to your advantage during a game. I think it's a bit of a stupid rule, but I can understand why someone would be upset if their opponent wrote down a move, analyzed for 15 minutes, and then changed their move because they found something better. As far as I know, the rule was more so because of electronic scoresheets, which would allow someone to look at the position if that move were to be made, but it's not really an issue otherwise. If someone claims that their opponent does this, I as a TD would have to penalize the player, but I'll rarely forfeit them (which is considered a reasonable response) unless I have reason to do otherwise. Hope this helps!

Please see USCF Rule 15A (Variation I), p. 46 of US Chess Federation Official Rules of Chess, 7th ed.
What you say is "against the rules" was a recent change several years ago that met a fair degree of resistance from many TDs, provoking the USCF to allow the old rule at the TD's discretion.
As a TD, you know that the rule was changed to bring USCF rules into conformity with FIDE.

fpawn

If you ever play an internationl tournament, even in the USA, then you will find out that "write first, then move" is clearly against FIDE rules. The primary USCF rule was changed to be consistent with FIDE.

Many veteran players still do it the old way, perhaps out of habit. I know some scholastic coaches recommend writing your move first as a way to slow kids down and encourage them to double check their intended move. Some adults prefer that too.

Frankly, I am surprised that any TD would penalize you without at least a warning. I state this with two possible exceptions: 1. the event was FIDE rated or 2. the TD announced the scorekeeping rule in announcements before the first round.

the_potmo

There of course is the famous 1959 candidates match game between Fischer and Tal, where Fischer writes down the drawing move (22 Rae1!). Tal sees the move and smiles, causing Fischer to change his mind! So at least in one case, writing the move down is no advantage! Very lame to penalize someone, in this spot, when clearly the player is gaining zero advantage and just doesn't know this silly, useless rule. Even the rules suggest that the TD first warn the player '... a second and perhaps third time'. I hate it when TDs let the power of being in charge, give them the opportunity to effect a game's results just because they can. I hope you both had a whole bunch of time on your clocks.

jabsnee

can't you stop recording moves when your time gets below..? 5 minutes or less can't remember

Ziryab
jabsnee wrote:

can't you stop recording moves when your time gets below..? 5 minutes or less can't remember

Yes

MasterMatthew52

Not when there's a 30 second increment you can't. Probably an official rule on when you can but in the 90|30increment games you must keep notating. In 90|5delay for example I think you're allowed to stop.

ChessMasterGS
jabsnee wrote:

can't you stop recording moves when your time gets below..? 5 minutes or less can't remember

I still had an hour left and my opponent had 17 after they got 2 free minutes from the penalty, plus not recording moves isn’t usually a good idea.

ChessMasterGS

My general rule of thumb is to only stop notating when it no longer matters for review and/or when time trouble is extremely bad

MasterMatthew52
ChessMasterGS wrote:

My general rule of thumb is to only stop notating when it no longer matters for review and/or when time trouble is extremely bad

Might want to watch out with that to make sure someone doesn't complain and you get penalized. You still have to notate in USCF even if it "doesn't matter".

ChessMasterGS
MasterMatthew52 wrote:
ChessMasterGS wrote:

My general rule of thumb is to only stop notating when it no longer matters for review and/or when time trouble is extremely bad

Might want to watch out with that to make sure someone doesn't complain and you get penalized. You still have to notate in USCF even if it "doesn't matter".

Well of course I’ll never stop notating when it’s required by rule, more like when I have 2 minutes left in 5 sec increment controls