Actually we need to have a more basic point made.
Does the person talking about the product have it in his possession to be able to actually examine that product in regards to quality?
And if he is comparing that product to others does he also have the others in his possession?
You see the goal of all this is the product purchased. The manufacturing process is important in that it must contain aspects and actions that will consistently produce that quality of a product.
Sorry no sure what you are talking about... Are you asking me if I own a chess sets factory? the answer is no.
About manufacturing. Lest start with one simple affirmation:
"No mater how perfect a production line seams to be, there is alway oportunity for improvement."
Do we agree with this afirmation or there is any objection to it?
I will neither affirm nor object, but I would like to raise something for consideration.
Let us say that I am an artist. And I create something. And I am good at it. And letʻs say I do it because I enjoy doing it. I consider my work art. My art brings me pleasure and it brings pleasure to those who appreciate it.
Now, is there a way to improve my art? Maybe so. But what do you mean by improve?
What if I like to make automobiles by hand? What if I'm good at it? What if I'm great? And what if people out there like my art of making hand made cars? Is there a way to improve my art? Well, what do you mean? Are you asking if there is a way to make more cars so that I can sell more cars? Of course I could just create a production line. I could make a whole lot of cars on that production line than I could by hand. But what of my art?
I could argue that the soul of my art might be stripped away. The emphasis will change from producing a piece of art with my own hands, a piece of art that someone else might enjoy for what it is, to mass producing my art, thus reducing it to a mere product. It might not satisfy my soul as it once did but I would gain monetarily.
Which of the two methods would be more satisfying to you, the artist?
Sometimes people do things because it makes them feel good. People like rcmacmillan might appreciate the art and be able to afford it, whereas others like UpcountryRain might also appreciate the art, but be on a budget and have to settle for a cheap copy.
Which one is right? Which one wrong? Is it even a question of right or wrong?
Do we agree with this afirmation or there is any objection to it?
I agree with that statement to a point. Henry Ford became obsessed with making his production lines more efficient. After a while he found that, despite paying the highest wages in the industry by far, employees kept quitting. They couldn't handle the constant stress of working at peak efficiency. The folks at NOJ make chess sets because they like to. Improving efficiency too much may ruin their enjoyment. That could lead to a loss of quality or even to their dropping out of the chess market altogether. For them it seems to be a family pasttime that also helps pay the bills. I don't think they're interested in wringing every wasted penny out of their production line.
Photos or it didn't happen-Thank you !
All three Dubrovnik sets look nice to me. I have the Chess Bazaar version & it plays great as far as I am concerned. I just like the design & could care less what others think compared to NOJ or HOS.
What a beautiful thread,it is like being in the mind of some higher being while he is busy talking to himself. Most excellent use of language. I applaud you.
Interesting point the one about art.
We will have to decide first if chess sets are art or design.
My defininion of art is that it can't be used in a practical way. For example the Yoko Ono chess set. All the pieces are of the same color because there is not 2 armies that confront each other but 1 world of love. If the object was created with the idea of beign used then it is not art, by definition, but design. I think the Dubrovnik is a poor design, after all it was not created by a designner but by an artist.
The argument that I have to own the product to judge it's design is an argument I don't agree with.Will need an explanation on the why.
That 1849 topic was being Hightjaked, I didn't di that alone it takes 5 people at least :)
Looks like they started with cheap chess sets and eventually move to high end ones, the reat is making money on their name... is that it?
Part of my definition of art is that its purpose is to bring beauty to the senses and mind of the beholder. It doesn't matter whether it is functional or nonfunctional.
Thanks for posting this as a separate topic. Production methods are worthy of discussion, and this is a good way to do it.
I agree with you RC.! It seems this guy might be confused with the English language & cannot express himself properly. Its really a non issue he brought up as most Chess Players go with a set design they like anyway.
If you do not have the set in your possession to hold and directly inspect, you cannot give a good critique of the product and what it took to make that product.
The manner in which things are made does matter. Making things quickly and not being concerned with the quality does not make a better or more efficient manufacturer.
So, at this I am going to quit this discussion because David obviously does not know what he is talking about when it comes to making high quality products versus poor quality ones.
And David, you have taken a posture of attack against Gregor and Noj. You do not know all the details of their complete business, so once again you are talking about something you do not know.
Gomer_Pyle: It seams like there is not a simple definition of art. Also no a single defininion seams to be suffient to explain what Art is. So we are left with the elements of art, or what we think something must be there in order to be consider as art.
Your point have 2 main flows. First beauty is subjective, this means something that is beautiful for you can be ugly for the next guy. The other problem is more philosofical. Is it really that beauty is the only valid element of art? I mean there is artist out there that work with controversy more than beauty, I point this out because controvery usually is not pretty. Do you consider art that generates controversy to be art?
Some people think art should be unique and original, you see, acordenly to this it will be very dificult to claim that a company that make repros of products, that someone else created, is doing art.
rcmacmillan:
"So you are saying that since the Dubrovnik was designed by an artist, it can't be used in a practical way?"
No I am no sayign that. I am saying I have come to the conclussion that the Duv set is poorly designed, regardless of how beautiful it is. It is hard to find an artist who is also good at design.
"If you think that the Dubrovnik is a poor design, draw up what you think is a good one and let us see it."
The reason why I think the Duv is a bad design is because when an object is designed it is not about just designing the object, but designing how the object is going to be produced. It is clear that the Duv design is so complicated that only 2 people in the world have being able to make it. This complication makes it a poor design.
An example of good design should be the Best Chessmen Ever. It is a design inspired on the aestetical elements of the Duv, but with a great deal of improvements, it have fix this problem I just mention above, it also have simplify the apearance so it is less distractive, it have also improve the stability of the pieces and it includes a metalic ring that will guarantee this set will no crack like other sets do.
This all are improvements over the original Duv Design and make it a much better set, design wise.
Eyechess:
"If you do not have the set in your possession to hold and directly inspect, you cannot give a good critique of the product and what it took to make that product."
Don't agree with this. this is an irreasonable expectation. Have you live in all the countries of the world to know wich one is a good country to live in? or do you own all the futball teams of the world? or have eat in all the restaurants on the world?...
"The manner in which things are made does matter. Making things quickly and not being concerned with the quality does not make a better or more efficient manufacturer."
Welcome to the industrial revolution. A time where stuff is made of best quality than anything made before and still at a very afordable price.
"And David, you have taken a posture of attack against Gregor and Noj."
Have I say before I have nothing againts this guy? and have I say before that saying things can be done better is not an atack?
"David, where to start? You persist in only tackling the questions you want to tackle, and repeating the same nonsensical theories over and over. "
I answer wast I think is interesting to answer. I am not going to get lost in a silly game of calling name with you or nobody. You can try to make this as personal as you want. I don't care. However when I see you mistaking what I have say I will take the time to clarify the point.
"Where is it written that everything designed should be designed to be simple to produce?"
That is one of the principles of good design. I do understand quality is hard to archive. I know this because I have work in the manufacturing of parts that require a level of precition of 5 parts of a million, Big oil companies plug this instruments on their pipes and this way they know how much oil it is pumped out; a machine that is not precise will give an inacurate number of barrels of oil, this can be millions of dollars off the mark. There is at least 20 other big companies out there, that I know of, making this instrument that really requieres a lot of precition. So I do know what is a work of presition I know what it takes to get there in a scenario that really matters, no in board games. For me it is a joke that there is a chess set designed so complicated that producing it is more dificult than this intruments I am talking about.
"Also, the stainless steel bases are a one hundred euro OPTION, not standard on the set."
I see them as a fundamental part of the original design, that low budgets can opt out.
"for someone who is presenting themselves as an expert, as you are"
I don't need to present my curriculum vitae to validate anything I say in an internet forum. Don't be silly. I come here and talk about what I like, I am not going to take picture of my higher educations to show them to you so you can then say the education this days is worthless. I am not going to present any certification of anything to be able to post in an inline forum. Get over it.
"And our stores are also full of the most poorly manufactured crap you can imagine."
Wanna compare those products with what was in a household 300 years ago?
" That is at least partially why the Maserati cost more than the Ford..."
I would say Ford have droped their quality a lot, Lest use Toyota instead, I think Toyota will serve better as an example, after all Toyota implements Kaizen. I personally will no consider a Maserati a good product, seams to me it was designed to laundry mafia money more than any other practical porpuse.
"More affordable is fine, but it often means a less than superior product."
Most of the time the cost is in materials. Wood is more expensive than plastic. Exotic wood is more expensive than comons woods.... Gold is more expensive than exotic woods... and so on. YOu can pick up the price of a product as higth as you like, all you need to do is glue enough diamonds on it... and yet you have done zero to imporve the quality ofthe product. More expensive doesn't means any better.
"The Industrial revolution enabled more people to have more things. It did NOT necessarily make them better quality things."
As far as I know the Mcdonals menu ofers way better quality food than what the Pharaon of Egipt was eating on his glorius days.
"No, saying things can be done better is not in itself an attack. However, the language that you used IS the language of attack"
From this side of the interwebs it looks like the way you quote my words is inflamatory and intended to present me as someone who have a personal problem with Gregor.
If I say for instance that I don't like how Noj websites looks, and they should make it look better. 2 or 3 pages ahead you will be saying that I say I "don't like" Gregor.
So If i say I resent somethign wthat was say, you will say I "resent" gregor. If I say they have manufactoring problems you will say I have "problems" with Noj... and so on.
I can't just take seriusly what you are doing here. I do want to focus on the manufacturing process and the design aspects of making chess sets, honestly this is my interest here. You keep coming over and over again with your inflamatory messages trying to create some drama between me and a guy I don't know.
I would appreciate if you stop saying I have something personal againts this Gregor guy. I already say I don't. And I am not planing to waste any more of my time addresing this drama of yours.
David, everyone has their own opinions what constitutes art. My only point was that opinion makes a great basis for discussion but a terrible basis for argument because everyone's is different.
I don't have any oar in the water regarding the Dubrovnik sets or makers so I'm staying out of that discussion.
Gomer_Pyle: Sure, still, I think a debate of what is art or not is worth it.
rcmacmillan: I want to talk about a product and you want to talk about some guy I don't know and me... I think you should admit it is annoying.
The point about owning or no the set is irrelevant. But as it is a point some people keep grabing like if it means something I am going to adress this with 2 refutations:
1. You don't own an original Duv, So you can't talk about this product.
2. I don't need own a product to know what it is. All it takes is one of my friends to own it and let me play with it. Your asumption that only owning is posible to know the product is totally arbitrary.
ISeeHowYourePinned: No I am serius, I am a big fan of industrialization. It makes better produts at better prices.
A $20 dollars Lamy Safari made of plastic gives equal quality of writing experience as a 1K Dollars Montblanc.
The Tonet 14 was as confortable as any chair hand craftet for the royalty.
The Stauton chess set, back to the 1849, was designed with the consideration of making it easy to mass production, this is why it got so popular so fast, because as expensive as it was it was way cheaper than any of the other confusing constructions of the master carvers of the time.
This are products that change the way people live and think. They are Icons of the industrial world.
Every time I try to get out they pull me back in...(The Godfather III)
David, you need to get a better grasp on the things we are saying. We did not say you had to own a set. We said you had to be able to have the set in your hands so you can inspect it completely.
I understand you have nothing personal to Gregor or anyone else in this. But you did say things that were attacking of Gregor. When you say you resent someone or something, that is a negative emotion about that. It is not simply a fact but your emotion and attitude. The statement or action is what we deal with not the intent.
Consider that you are the only one in this thread agreeing with the things you say. Others have found disagreement with you on no less than 3 or 4 points.
I understand, I think, what you are trying to get across. In all respect, so what? Gregor and his family are fine doing what they do and how they do it. It is not your business how they run their business.
If you do not like the final product that they, or anyone else produces, don't buy that product. If you think the current competitors to Noj put out as good or better a product at a lesser price, good for you. You should buy from them. No one here is telling you that you must buy from Noj or anyplace else.
You have brought up the discussion of chess set design and manufacturing. If you want to have a positive effect you should discuss this with people that are interested in or active themselves in the design and manufacture of chess sets. The people on this forum are consumers, not producers, excepting Alan Dewey and Carl. I note that neither one has decided to engage you in this conversation.
The majority of people that have conversed with you in this thread and the other one about this, have all disagreed with you telling a fellow how he should run his business and since he does not run his business the way you want, you resent him. This is wrong on a whole number of levels.
The management systems you refer to are nothing more than tools used in managing an operation. There is no one tool anywhere that applies to all things and situations.
This topic was brough up a diferent topic. I pointed out that it is enough of highjaking that topic to talk about this and I made an open invitation to whoever want to keep talking about this to create a new topic so we keep the forum organize.
As I see other members of the forum want to keep talking offtopic there I have decide to create the new topic myself.
First I want to make clear this is not about any particular company. I have talked on this forums before about House Of Stauton, ChessBazaar and Recently NOJ.
About The Dubrovnik set, I am going to say this rigth away: From some time now I have being coming to the idea that desing wise it is not really that great. I am not questioning the beauty of it, though.
About manufacturing. Lest start with one simple affirmation:
"No mater how perfect a production line seams to be, there is alway oportunity for improvement."
Do we agree with this afirmation or there is any objection to it?