Dvoretsky
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Endgame: Dvoretsky or Silman?
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There is a Dvoretsky book on the endgame that is fairly advanced, but his Endgame Manual is good for the average player as I recall.
Apr 11, 2009
0
#4
My favourite endgame book is Paul Keres' Practical Chess Endings, which is indeed very practical, and covers quite a bit. Silman's starts from the very basics, and works its way up, but it is more sophisticated than some of his books. Dvoretsky's Manual is one of his most accessible books. Another book worth considering is Muller and Lamprecht's Fundamental Chess Endings, which is getting really good reviews.
Two Dvoretsky endgame books:
http://www.amazon.com/Dvoretskys-Endgame-Manual-Mark-Dvoretsky/dp/1888690194
http://www.caissa-chess.com/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=482
The latter is part of the advanced 5-book series and is too much, in practical terms, for less than...1900 otb or more?
A review on Endgame Manual:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_js/js_dvrskys_endgm_mnl.html
Hi,
Dvoretsky ! from those you mentioned
In Silman, the content is ok but and this a big but :
1) The structure of the book ist confususing.
2) The way the diagrams are placed you have to wonder if Silman went for as many pages as possible. He might have took a look in the old Cheron.
Müller/Lamprecht Fundamental Endgames Encyclopedia is also good. But and this is also a big but again, why in the world you need exercises in an encyclopedia ?
Keres: Practical Chess Endings some nice stuff but to small for an overview.
Euwe: The Endgame (Das Endspiel) Big one, I don't really like it.
Awerbach: This one is nice.
Michael
Ok, it seems Dvoretskys Endgame Manual wins. Silman is too basic for me it seems and I don't think complexity will be a huge problem. I've studied maths and physics on college level for years, a heavy book doesn't dent me really and I can study for hours. No problem.
Any last thoughts? If not, I'm buying this baby next month. Thanks for the input all of you.
Silman's Complete Endgame Course is divided into sections appropriate for each class from beginner to expert. You might start with this and see where you stand on endgame knowledge. Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual is aimed at Master level and above. If you make it all the way through Silman with satisfactory (to yourself) comprehension, then Dvoretsky would be next. By the time you finish both books few below IM would be able to beat you in the endgame.
richie_and_oprah wrote:
Dvoretsky is not "next" after Silman, sorry.
Also, just finishing the books does not make one strong. One must really know how to study these types of works, as it takes 100's of hours of hard work to extract knowledge and wisdom. In addition, if your memory is less than stellar, you will not even remember all the info you have digested.
Silman is enough for anyone that is not a professional player. If you memorize everything in the Silman book and really know it, there is no need for Dvoretsky until you get your IM title.
What exactly is covered in the Silman book? Is it alot more then what I have mentioned above? Does it cover detailed rook ending tactics or is it just 10 pages?
richie_and_oprah wrote:
There is a lot more than 10 pages on this subject in the Silman work. and yes, it contains a bit more than the list you posted. However, and I mean no offense, do you really have these endgames "down" and memorized all the pertinent side-lines and exceptions? Can you bust-out 100 endgame problems in 10 minutes?
Please keep in my mind: I am not a fan of Silman, his works, or this book in particular. I think this endgame book is one of the most overrated and over-hyped tomes in the past 20 years. But, it is still a good work, very serviceable and full of useful knowledge to take players up to 2200 level of endgames.
I think the Keres book mentioned earlier is excellent. Also, Capablanca's Endgame book is excellent. So are the work's of Edmar Mednis and Ludek Pachman. Glenn Flear's "Practical Endgame Play" is stellar and good for the advanced club player to professional. Karsten Mullers works are sublime, very dry, but very good for serious students of the endgame (people that enjoy taking weeks to get through 1 or 2 examples).
There are a lot of choices besides the two that reside on polemic ends of the spectrum (Silman/Dvorestky). To anyone that is 2000 and lower rated, the Silman book still remians an excellent choice and hard to argue against, despite my un-love for it (too much empty white space! and some mistakes in analysis that only 2200+ would recognize).
I see.
I found a review of Silmans book and it seems that my knowlege ending somewhere in the high A class section. I know half of it approximately. Everything below I do know, maybe not blitz fast but in long timed OTB chess I do the right thing.
So this brings me to my question to you. You seem to know alot of these endgame books. Do you think it is a waste for me to buy Silmans book when I know everything up to the class A section or should I get it and refresh everything in my head (Might help in blitz games?) or should I buy an endgame book (one of your other suggestions?) that starts at a slightly higher level and/or has more detailed info for class A+ endgame?
Another question. I have only played chess actively (like really started booking up and playing hours every day) for three months. You might think I'm making up that I actually do know endgame up to the class A section but I do. Let's say you belive me, would you think it is a waste of time for me to buy any endgame book? Maybe put more effort into a tactics book? Allthough (I have analyzed alot of my games) I do lose most of my games in the endgame. I generally come out of the opening with advantages because I have good opening repertoir. Middle game is ok I think.
Thx for suggestions.
richie_and_oprah wrote:
Tactics would be my choice here.
I believe fully you will get 10X the results in your games both right away and long-term from commiting to tactical training.
Play through full games of GM's in the opening systems you prefer to play. Look for long games that reach an ending and you can pick up incredible practical endgames ideas in both their play and subsequent analysis. Make sure to go through the games MANY TIMES and spend time in the notes understanding sidelines AFTER you go through it a couple of times.
Given time controls in modern chess and lack of adjournment, endgames, while still important, are not so much so as a strong tactical base.
Also, I always suggest extensive MIDDLEGAME study since this is truly the most complex and difficult aspect of the game, even for GM's. This is also done through using full games, in fact the same ones used for endings!
To that end: Game collections of players such as: Alekhine, Capablanca, Botvinnik, et.al. are most worthwhile especially as they are ubiquitous and can be found inexpensively. Modern collections will not have as many endgames to look at, but Kamsky games are a great place to study dry, technical endgames in which minute and infintessismal advantages are squeezed. The Granddaddy of all modern players may be Karpov games, but that is merely an opinion.
I see.
Ok if I get an endgame book then it will be Silmans. I can learn everything I need from it it seems then. My opening rep is covered by books I have. I have a strong opening rep in my bracket. So that leaves middle game.
You suggest I play through my opening rep book until the end in each game. Ok I've done that. I do refresh them from time to time by playing them on a digital board.
My question is: What else can I do to improve my tactics and middle game? What book on general middle game and tactics would you recommend and what else (then studying GM games etc) should I do? Should I randomly solve tactical problems like on this site or in a book every day for an hour? Does that help for example?
Thx for the input. Appreciated.
I am using the Silman book, and I like it. I'm sure it leaves stuff out, but he makes it clear in the introduction that he left things (like the bishop-knight endgame for example) out because they are very time consuming to learn, and most players would be better off using their time on another phase of the game. The entire book is geared toward giving you what you need to know at your level in the least possible study time.
Truthfully though, if you want a recommendation, I have been getting a lot out of doing the endgame lessons in the computer workout feature of this site. Between that, and the Tactics Trainer, it is well worth the price to become a platinum member.
hey atahan t, i prefer dvoretsky's endgame manual, but you might consider taking a look at shereshevsky's endgame strategy or his two-volume mastering the endgame books. also, john nunn's tactical chess endings is a delight to read and learn from.
Apr 16, 2009
0
#15
hello atahant. Glen Fear's "practical endgame play" might be worth considering. Do some searching to see if you can find more about its content. Sounds to me that Richie and Oprah are trying to give you good advice. Would it be practical to do both tactics and endgame study. Perhaps alternating monthly?
Thanks guys, I'll look into those books aswell. I think it is obvious I mostly need midgame tactics study for now.
Apr 21, 2009
0
#17
One excellent endgame book that hasn't been mentioned is Reuben Fine's Basic Chess Endings done in algabraic notation by Pal Benko. I'm a fairly weak player and its a bear to get through. Easily the hardest of the two mentioned previously.
Who should have one this ending. How should I have played this one. What piece material does it take to win certain endings are all answered once you get the hang of his writing.
A 600 page tome that is well worth the investment. (Provided you like the 1800s language usage IE pawns should be connected-whose pawns. Clearly he is ahead-who is ahead. Ect Ect.)
An excerpt: I. The winning process in the case of bishop and knight endings may be conveniently divided into these five steps: 1) Place all your pieces in the most favorable positions available
2) Weaken the opponents pawns as much as possible
3) Create an outside passed pawn
4) If a piece is diverted to stop the pawn capture it
5) If the king is used to block the pawn , maneuver your own king to the other wing and establish a decisive superiority there.
I imagine he's made his decision at some point in the last 4 years.
Silman - totally overrated as most American chess literature
Dvoretsky - too advanced for amateurs
How about 6 books by GM V.Kovacevic? (each one is more than 300 pages long):
- Pawn and Knight Endgames
- Bishop Endgames
- Minor Pieces Endgames
- Rooks and Pawns 1
- Rooks and Pawns 2
- Rooks and Minor Pieces
Everything you need to know about endgame is in those books but it would take years to master them all. And one more slight problem: the books are written in Croatian, I think there's no English translation so...
I really need help with picking out a really good endgame manual. I am not a beginner but I do have alot to learn. From what I understand is that the Dvoretsky book is very advanced but very complete and Silmans is easier and more basic but not as deep.
So, how do I know wich one to get?
My knowlege of the endgame is (impossible to sum up correctly but I'll try to give an idea)
-Pawn on 7th rank vs queen theory (ie draw on rook and bishop files, win otherwise)
-Lucena Position
-Philidor Position
-Bishops of opposite/same color + pawn endings
-Passed pawns, connected and protected
-Open files for rooks
-King activation
-Fork and skewer tatics in endgame
-Theory of creating 2 weaknesses for the enemy
-Breaking 3vs3 pawn formations for passed pawns
-2 bishop mating
-Opposition when king+pawn vs king
I'm sure I've missed alot but still. What would you say that I need? Silmans or Dvoretskys book on endgames? Can I still learn alot from the Silman book?