PSA: Millennium Mephisto Phoenix

Cheers Reactor 8 - I am completely ignorant ( or perhaps reasonably ignorant) when it comes to chess computers.

For whatever reason, this Mephisto Phoenix matched with a lovely e-board and wooden pieces - seems attractive but I’m not sure what it (or the promise of it) stands out among other options. I am simply gravitating to articles about it.

For background, I play 95% on my Apple phone or a Mac or Windows computer. I really enjoy playing daily games against friends online. I collect boards and pieces and sometimes use them to study and play. I am trying to learn and I playing against chess.com avatars a bit. I enjoy chess puzzles.
I should learn via more reading/study of books etc… but to date, I have found not dedicated time to such learning - hence I am perhaps progressing more slowly that I might with more study and coaching.

I would love an easy option where I can set up a great looking board/pieces and have a hybrid digital/otb experience and I am happy to move pieces - I don’t need the board to move pieces as per some options.

This seems to be an emerging option - albeit price prohibitive (for me) - especially when exchange rates, freight and indeed, even if it is available in Australia? I’m saying above - I am not inferring it is over-priced - quality should be priced to match - rather it is more a reflection on what I can allocate to such a purchase. I’d have to sell or stop buying other pieces for about 5 years!! 🤦‍♂️😊

Anyway … thanks for your reflection and indeed, to all, for this thread. Interesting indeed.

Your desire for the "hybrid" experience is exactly what I was looking for when I bought the Chessnut.  It does everything advertised for only $200 (US).  It is a sensor board that knows a Knight from a Pawn rather than relying on software to "remember" what is on what squares.  It sends your move to whatever you are hooked up to and lights up with your opponent's move. Your opponent could be a chess engine on your phone/tablet, a chess engine or your PC, a human on lichess.com or chess.com, or in some cases a computer bot on the online services.

The devil is in the details though.  I've been researching this for 2-3 weeks now and nothing is perfect for anyone. The problem is exacerbated for me because I own a Mac and not a PC.  Sure I could run a VM and Windows but just for Chessbase?  Why should I go out of my way to buy their program when they couldn't be bothered or technically capable of making it for my OS?  Microsoft makes Office for the Mac and Adobe makes Photoshop. So if I'm going to spend money I want it to be for something like Hiarcs or Shredder that made the effort to support both.  

These problems seem to stem from the fact that the majority of the manufacturers are German and long time chess industry players that have never seen fit to support anything but Windows.  They don't do that great of a job on the iPhone/iPad even now.  Each company makes new devices with their own interfaces and they expect the software people to support them, not the other way around. There are gaps and holes in the support in every chess related program for OS's and eBoards.

Chessnut, Square Off, and few others are new and coming from outside the long time chess manufacturers.  They are innovating and competing against monopolistic companies that have fallen asleep over 20 years.  But they are new and have their own teething issues.

So we find ourselves with overpriced established hardware that has poor interoperability or reasonably priced new hardware with new software that has its own problems. I suspect the Mephisto will be an answer to some of the issues because you don't need a PC of any kind to play against the best engines and ChessLink is reliable as anything for online play.  However it is not a solution to the overpriced issue.

After learning more about the engine and analysis feature from the beta tester's reviews, I can say that this standalone chess computer does not have a method to ingest a completed game. There is an Analysis feature wherein you play out each move and have the freedom to switch the engines to see what each one recommends based on the parameters that you set - there are general machine settings and there are sub-settings that are specific to each engine.

But who knows? If enough owners ask for it, the developers at Millennium could add that feature to ingest an entire game in a future update, right?

The new rosewood boards that come with the Mephisto Phoenix line are definitely desirable. We can only hope that they will be made available separately in the future.

Keep checking back. Pretty soon we should see owners post pictures of these computers here on chess.com along with their feedback.

Speaking of kit, here is a highlight from the beta tester regarding the retro chess engines that will come with the Mephisto Phoenix:

There will be an emulation package for the market launch. This includes the following 20 classics of chess computer history:

Author Richard Lang: Mephisto Amsterdam, Dallas, Roma, Almeria, Portorose, Lyon, Vancouver, London.

Author Johan de Koning: Saitek Risk 2500, Mephisto Montreux, Tasc King V2.20, 2.23 & 2.50.

Author Ed Schroeder: Mephisto Rebel 5.0, MM IV, MM V, MMV (5.1), Polgar, Tasc R30 Gideon.

Authors Elmar Henne & Thomas Nitsche: Mephisto Glasgow.

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This scratches that itch for everyone who has always wanted to play with these tournament chess computers but could not afford to collect them like these lucky gentlemen:

Thanks.  The link you provided using google translate was long but informative.  They seem to have a passion for the older chess computers.  I hope they are successful in turning this into a continually updated platform.  I wouldn't have much use for the chess.com bots if I could analyze my games on the millennium board.  Of what they will have implemented on day one, the adaptive Shredder mode looks fascinating.  From your link:

"Let's start with Shredder 13.5 NNUE by Stefan Meyer-Kahlen. Shredder understands perfectly how to simulate human play and can be adapted very flexibly. I would describe the style as positional, sometimes powerful, with strengths in the endgame. Tactics are not necessarily Shredder's forte, but the program always comes up with nice tactical hits, which then end with precise attacks on the king. For me a completely coherent engine.

Shredder offers the following options on the Mephisto Phoenix:

- Elo (this can be used to define the strength of the engine)

The well-known Elo levels OFF (no limit), 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000, 2100, 2200, 2300, 2400, 2500, 2600, 2700 , 2800 AND Adaptive available.

Adaptive means that the program adapts to your skill level over time. After 30 games at the latest you will find the perfect opponent for your game, ie Shredder adapts exactly to your strength.

Shredder shows you a rating so that you can also see what Elo level you are at according to Shredder's assessment. For the practical game, it means that you will find a weak engine at the beginning of the adaptive game, which will slowly continue to increase until it has reached exactly your level, in order to find the perfect opponent. So enjoy the first victories, because it won't be that easy in the long run.

The number sounds nice, but has it been tested in practice? Yes, in a larger chess club. After ~30 games, the values ​​achieved corresponded almost exactly to the actual Elo values ​​of the players. Why almost? Because, of course, the playing strength of people is always subject to fluctuations. "

The Mephisto Phoenix will be released with enough engines to satisfy both the retro chess computer fans and the modern UCI chess computer users.

We will have to wait and see how the build of Shredder in the Phoenix will compare to the full functionality of a Windows computer running Power Fritz or Komodo Dragon 3, both running NNUE, and the old industry standard, a DGT e-board.

I just wanted to share Ismenio's page, the site where I first learned of Ruud's Resurrection custom module for the Mephisto modular boards. Back in 2005, Ruud could only fulfill 12 orders at a time.

http://www.ismenio.com/ruud.html

[EDIT]

Ruud's history of releases has shown that his products have continuously evolved since he started customizing modules in 2005 - upgrading the older engines and replacing some with stronger engines. The mere fact that the Phoenix will include an engine that uses online neural networks for chess analysis is a testament to this.

And as long as chess continues to be enjoyed by online players who are willing to upgrade their interface to use electronic chess boards, we should expect these chess computer manufacturers to stay around. I've mentioned in a different thread how capitalism has eventually led to DGT, SquareOff, Millennium, Certabo and ChessNut to release competing products.

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Check out Ismenio's fan-made 2017 documentary on the history and evolution chess computers. It features an exclusive interview with Ruud Martin on how he got started with chess computing (starts at 33:58).

Thanks :-)

The Mephisto Phoenix is the best wooden chess computer on earth and it's worth the money.

But it should have much more retro emulations.

It would be nice if it could move the pieces automatically (as an option).

Millennium has not released an auto board. That’s still the domain of SquareOff - and that company is delayed with the release of their latest line of products with the manufacturing and making corrections to issues that came up with the early productions from what I’ve read. 
I do hope to see more names and engines to the retro lineup. I have been a fan of the Spracklens (Fidelity), Nelson (Excalibur) and Kittinger (Novag) as well. [EDIT]

I have bought today a second one but this time as a gift :-)

Only some hours left before the discount is running out!!!

Good thing you were able to still take advantage of the sale. We will see how long the full price will remain once the units are finally out with the retailers. 
Historically, I have not seen a DGT Revelation II ever go on sale until the last unit in stock has been sold. I would not be surprised if that happened to the Mephisto Phoenix as well.  

I ordered the Mephisto Phoenix T after the pre-order period was over. The only discount code I could use was SAVE10, which amounts to 10% off. Anyway, if this is close to being "future-proof", I recommend that the developers think about adding Duck Chess recognition, with or without a duck, as a player option. 

Can any of these standalone chess computers handle Chess960? 

For Chess960 on the Phoenix, my assumption is that you can select Shredder from the list of engines, set the ELO strength to use the neural net over wifi, setup the board with your preferred starting pieces via piece recognition, and let it run. 
As for other systems, you know that Millennium already released the King Performance and King Competition chess computers which played Chess960, right? 
I had to look up Duck Chess. It’s an interesting chess teaching tool, but I don’t see it being added to the engine library of the Phoenix. 

Placed my pre-order.
It will be interesting to see if this will satisfy my chess and training needs. (I am very passionate about chess but not a very good player at all, the king of blunders) I live off-grid with spotty internet connection and have primarily ordered this as a training partner. Sure I can study just as well with a board but having a playing partner, strong computer and e-board at all times with the pleasure of actually pushing wood around seemed really attractive to me. 
Once we get our hands on it I hope we can open a new tread sharing all the fun ways to use this as a training tool.

Here is what I have in mind so far:    

• solving more complicated puzzles 4+moves
• endgame training
• analyzing previously played games
• ...

and just getting beat up by retro computers from my childhood just seems a lot of fun

[EDIT] For a sparring partner, you should set the ELO level to “adaptive”. It should be an opponent that is as strong as your current strength, and it should not steamroll you with precise computer calculations. Hopefully it proves to scale better than the DGT Centaur’s adaptive feature.

For an analysis tool, you should always use the engines at the highest ELO levels, and you should take advantage of the neural network resource with Shredder or Stockfish. That would be your alternative to accessing the engine on LiChess called “lc0” if you had solid internet service. 
For an opening preparation tool, you can leverage the one million half moves of chess openings that should come with the Phoenix right out of the box. 
When your Internet is more stable, you can get the Millennium ChessLink and use the rosewood board as an e-board and play wirelessly on supported sites. 

Weird - I want this bl@@dy thing and I’m not even sure why! It just seems to be the bees knees … alas not for me unless the seed of the fabled money-tree grows in my garden … but still, I enjoy reading what it does/can do. How did I go from not playing chess - to loving the games so much- as a result of a global pandemic - that I’m now enjoying window shopping for the unattainable? Riddle me that …

I have coveted the DGT Revelation II Anniversary Edition myself ever since it was released. I’ve even seen it be played with the BCE Eastern Stage 1 chess set with the DGT piece recognition upgrade. That would have been $3450 +tax for the Revelation II PLUS an estimated $1700-$1900 +vat+ship for a custom order from NOJ. Since NOJ has been on backorder, the alternative could be the new hotness - the HOS Cairnes or Sinquefield official tournament pieces with DGT recognition for $1650 +tax.

Like you, I enjoy window shopping as well. 

With the risk of going off-topic: What's the issue with DGT Centaur's adaptive feature?