Reproduction and Real Jaques of London Chess Set

@lighthouse - fAwesome!

after being a 'silent observer' here for a while now I can see that I like the interchangeable finials (the rounder ones) on the later Zagrebs. Also, from all of your excellent photos I can see the height differences and feel the weight of the 3.x vs the 4.0 King.

And, the Knights, the knights!

I've never had any money but I can see that a later Zagreb from HOS might be worth my quitting smoking for!

One greatness of the Set pictures is to see the color differences. Those Reds, those reds, those deep dark reds....

The HOS Zagreb looks great in photos, but when I bought them, I quickly discovered that I didn't like them nearly as much as I thought I would. I can't put my finger on what it is, but as good as they look, something about the pieces just feels off when actually playing with them. Perhaps they are just a tiny bit too tall for the size of their bases.

A somewhat similar set that I like much better is the 4 inch version of the House of Chess "Yugo" pieces.

This is rather far afield from the topic of original and reproduction Jaques sets, but the "Zagreb" wasn't derived from the Dubrovnik by anyone in Yugoslavia, or the set of any tournament there. It was derived in Alabama and Amristar, and marketed as if it had been an official tournament set in Yugoslavia. The actual inspiration for that knight appears to be Russian. At least, Mike Ladzinski owns a vintage Soviet set from the forties or fifties, I recall, with knights of that design.

CatoWeeksbooth: I've got the Zagreb59 from HOS, too, and I consider them lovely, but just as Chuck Grau points out, they're only inspired by the Dubrovnik set, and not a very close approximation at that. The craftsmanship is fabulous, but for me they're a little too tall and too heavy for everyday use (read 'ordinary chess training'), and I mainly use the set for playing over games at a leisurely pace and for longplay games against Shredder to get the right exclusive World Championship feeling ;-) .

Had I known about the NOJ workshop in Slovenia at the time, I would never have bought the HOS set, but instead gone for either their original Dubrovnik set or their Dubrovnik II set. There are only a few absolutely perfect chess set models in the world, and I definitely consider those two to be in that class.

BonTheCat: Yes, the Noj Dubrovniks are of course a lot better (I own the 1950 variant myself, and of course love it), but's in a very different price class, so it isn't really a fair comparison. It's kind of strange that HOS doesn't offer a true high-end Dubrovnik set.

But, as cgrau correctly points out, we're drifting off-topic.

I suppose we can discuss what high-end means, but once Dubrovnik sets became the rage, HOS began offering one, and a pretty good one, better than those offered by ChessBazaar in the eyes of many. I own one, but never play with it, as every time I want to play with a Dubro, I pull one of my NOJ sets out from the display. When HOS added a Dubro to its line, it required something of a redo of their ad copy for the "Zagreb." Sorry for continuing to drift.

Costwise, the Zagreb '59 I bought nearly ten years ago would have been roughly equal to the NOJ Dubrovnik, and still is as far as I can see. And I would say that in this particular case, the money would be better spent on NOJ rather than HOS! Anyway, back to the topic proper.

"cgrau escreveu:

Wow! I find myself broadly agreeing with this above.

I talked with Noj about various aspects of chess designs for years, they are a great team and produce good work.

 I owned an HoS Zagreb '59 set which I bought about 12 years ago. I ended up giving it away about 5-6 years ago. It was okay, not great. It had its share of issues, which I wasn't savvy enough at the time to identify. If I had received that set today, I would have return at least 5-6 pieces for various reasons.

Funny thing, I was never able to confirm that the "Zagreb '59" set was ever used at that tournament! Never saw any pictures. Perhaps the whole thing was one of Frank's creative marketing campaigns? If anyone has, or can find, any supporting evidence that this set was ever used at the 1959 CandidatesTournament, which by the way, was held in Bled (rounds 1-14), Zagreb (rounds 15-21), and Belgrade (rounds 22-28), please post. Thanks. The best I can make out from the photos I've seen has the knights looking closer to the original Dubrovnik knights than the current Zagreb '59 design.

I think that as you play more and more with physical sets and different sets, you do become increasingly aware of a set's shortcomings or strengths and more able to identify which sets you prefer. The simple design of the Noj dubrovnik ii pieces grew on me. I don't think I would have been attracted to buying that set as my second or third set, but now that I have it, it's my absolute favourite. It's funny how that happens, but your taste does change over time. Not necessarily more or less expensive, just different.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above, and especially with the Noj Dubrovnik II set comments.

I bought my first Dubrovnik II set in Walnut, back in the spring of 2010.  At the time, I owned about 6 wood sets,  I was and still am a person that values how the pieces physically handle and play during a game.  My sets all were the best I could find for their playing characteristics.

I bought my Dubrovnik set when a young man showed me one he bought, in black ebonized by the way, from Noj and then looking at the pictures and videos of Bobby Fischer with that same design set.  I got a great price on mine as Chessusa.com had one and it was not expensive back then.

Once I played a few games with that set, it did become my favorite set to play with.  There are times when it is hard to put into words why a particular set becomes your favorite, and this is one of them.

Two years after buying my Dubrovnik set, someone told me about the Best Chessmen Ever set and I found it was made by the same company/people, Noj.  I contacted the owner of Chessusa.com and convinced him to get a few of those sets to sell and of course to get the one I wanted, which he did.  That set plays very well, but the Dubrovnik is still my favorite.

Then two years after that I started coming to this forum and my "collection" of 7 wood chess sets went up, over about 2 1/2 years to well over 30, thanks to the good people on this forum.

I have bought the Noj GM Pavasovic set in this time as well as 2 more of the Dubrovnik II sets making it so I now own the Dubrovnik II in every wood and color they currently offer.

The Noj sets are very well made and handle exquisitely.  The Dubrovnik II set still is my favorite of all the Noj sets as well as all those from other companies.

The Dubrovnik does not look as aesthetic or nice in its photos compared to a lot of other sets.  And I have owned no other Dubrovnik sets from other companies so I cannot say it is the design.  What I will say is that it is Noj and how they make that Dubrovnik II design set that is wonderful.

@goodknightmike - Re: Soviet 40's-50's set. Awesome chess set pix. Thanks for those.

Those Knights....those nights!?

Also loving the King's finial.

So many choices and variations make it difficult for newbs. Me? I own no chess sets and have no money!

That said, I am strongly leaning to Zagreb sets (with the 3 optional non-religious finials) or, at least a Dubrovnik with only one alter-colored Bishop's finial. Also, am not sure whether the 4" King is a 'must-have' or an optional 'like-to-have'. It seems the 3.x" Kings are proportionally truer. I like the reds. Yes I do!

Keep those comments coming. Thanks everyone for your contributions. Yes, all-of-you!

Get whatever you like, but keep in mind the "Zagreb" is of no historical significance. It's a creature of marketing. By contrast, the Dubrovnik is rich in history. 

I would love to see pictures of your sets and know who they are made by... I'm planning to order a NOJ Dubrovnik 1950 set but if you can show us a set as good for less money that would be great.

Yes, please show us some of your sets and where you got them from. We are all eager to get great sets at good prices so if you have information on this, please share - both pics and how to get the lower prices. 

Stauntonmaster...Just give the name of where one can find NOJ calibre,"new"  Soviet style pieces  and we'll be impressed....Waiting,or should I?

Just about the time I thought it was safe to get back in the water....  We spent some time arguing the merits / demerits of the HOS Zagreb '59. I used some great Dubrovnik / Zagreb -like sets when I was stationed in West Germany in the early 1970's, some were so great you hated to part with them, others were a slight bit better than some of the cheapest plastics sets we use today.  I've never used the HOS Zagreb '59 series set. Whatever I use today it needs to be heavily weighted and stable.  Part of the reason I love -- dare I say it -- HOS PLASTIC Marshall set. Cheap when compared to a wood set yet capable of with standing a beating. The NOJ Dubrovnik set is nice, BUT... expensive especially since the prices are quoted in EUROS, and only comes with 2 queens though for a little more you can get 4. The other minor quibble is it is not technically regulation size coming in a a hair over 3.5 inches.  For a little more $$ you can get the NOJ Dubrovnik II with a 4 inch king. Today I open my junk mail and found this notice from HOS for a genuine Dubrovnik set BUT a standard 3.75 inch king:

https://www.houseofstaunton.com/the-dubrovnik-series-chess-pieces-3-75-king.html?utm_source=HOS&utm_campaign=d3dde0075e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_04_05&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_95811ea3d7-d3dde0075e-237233217&mc_cid=d3dde0075e&mc_eid=e7a1b6548c

Are they going to be as good as NOJ sets?? I seriously think not!!  Do I expect they will be better than many of the Dubrovnik / Zagreb -like sets available in wild today?? Far and away!! IF we use the HOS Zagreb '59 as a "Standard" then the NOJ Dubrovnik  is the really High End, it is also in Europe, no outlets, etc.. If you want a "standard" size" set you need to buy the Dubrovnik II w/4.0" inch King.  IF we assume that HOS has produced a faithful reproduction of a Dubrovnik set, then this set cuts the baby in half: Full regulation size 3.75" king which is taller that the Original Dubrovnik 1950 set of 3.5", the NOJ Dubrovnik II also 3.5" king, and smaller than the NOJ Dubrovnik II w/4.0", its has two additional in favor of it: You can get it starting at $200, and the availability should not be an issue.  Now the BIG question is: How will it stack up to the "Standard" HOS Zagreb '59?  Given that I've have never handled one I do not know. I do remember using some dream sets in Germany in the 1970's (Long before HOS or any of today's "Chess Boutiques" existed), and many of those were like HOS "Zagreb '59" sets ie they used the Dubrovnik  as a starting point and created a more refined set, properly weighted, and eye appealing. In those days "historical accuracy" was not as big a thing as it is today. We have been debating the issue of today's "Reproductions" of Jaques' Original Staunton set with those produced by HOS, OS, CB, et al, while completely forgetting that even within Jaques' itself there never was a single design, rather that the design itself evolved over time. Hence you have the Anderson Design, the Marshall set, etc. etc., that is "famous" only because because there were the particular sets that were associated with some of the games most notable Master's. It is unfair to compare some of the BEAUTIFUL sets being produced today by companies such as HOS, OS, CB, et al companies that enforce Quality Control, to ensure that not only is it BEAUTIFUL, but designed to its intended purpose: a game of chess that can get to be a bit -- shall we say -- physical at times. Compared to some of today's sets some of Jaques' early sets are rather uninspiring. One of the major things I LIKE -- LOVE -- about the Eastern Staunton  ie the  "Dubrovnik" and it descendants of which there are many  is the simple design. They can take a beating!!! The problem is there are way too many poor reproductions out there these include improper weighting, if weighted at all, bases too narrow, proportions out of whack, etc, etc, etc. Comparing the the Historic Dubrovnik 1950 set with say the "Zagreb '59 (and its copies) is like trying to compare Jaques Historic 1849 Staunton  set to any of today's beautifully carved Staunton sets, sets that have under gone a lot of Quality control, or even to some of the truly futuristic sets such as the "Empire Series", which in its own right is quite beautiful.  What is true is that both the "Dubrovnik" sets and its many reproductions including the NOJ Dubrovnik II, the NOJ, Dubrovnik II w/4.0", many of its 1970's  copies and now HOS, and whoever many or may NOT be creating "reproductions" of this set and comparing them to HOS "Zagreb '59", and its copies is that both are Eastern Staunton style sets, and there are many, many Eastern Style sets produced in the 1970's and probably 1980's that probably -- actually did -- barrow design features both from classical Western Staunton pieces, as well from Eastern Soviet style sets. These sets were carefully weighted, had a more refined look,  especially in the knights, and there was a balanced "feel" about the set. Like I said this is one set that once you have actually handled one, you *know* what a great set should feel like. Until the most recent discussion on the HOS Zagreb '59 here, I have heard very little about the set or know anyone who has ever owned one, few unbiased reviews. IF anyone actually buys this HOS "Dubrovnik" set (for practical purposes we'll call it the HOS Dubrovnik III ie a variant of the Dubrovnik 1950 set which is being promoted as exact reproduction of the 1950 set just like the NOJ Dubrovnik II  w/4.0" king the chief difference is the size of the king 3.75" --vs -- 3.5" or 3.75" -- vs -- 4.0" ) but who either has or has used the Zagreb '59, {or any of its clones [is now the time to say "Send in the Clones"?. Yeah I know bad pun. ] )I'd like to hear how both sets compare, they also are priced very similarly. For me it is all about stability , about "the feel". Historical accuracy aside, it come down to the "feel".  If one set is significantly top heavy that does me no good, if they are approximately the same, then it comes down splitting hairs: ie one is NOT an EXACT reproduction of the ORIGINAL Dubrovnik 1950 set. I'm Mr. Pragmatic: I am quite happy with my NEAR reproduction "Collector's Series w/4.0 king", so if it comes down that both sets feel exactly or almost the same, then you jump on the set you can at an excellent price.

Who said we'd never get back on track?!?

 A real Jaques chess set for the royal  dolls house www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/230734

all hand made .