1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3

I have often found myself on the black side of this in blitz games. It doesn't seem ambitious for white, committing himself to a bad bishop on c1. However, I find that this is a real pain to play against as black because I want to play the Slav, not the Semi-Slav, and it seems that playing 4...Bf5 would just be bad after 5. cxd5 cxd5 6. Qb3. Playing 4...dxc4 first doesn't solve the problem because of 5. Bxc4 Bf5 6. Qb3 winning. Is there any way to play a Classical Slav against this move order or am I forced to play e6 before developing the bishop?

4..a6 and after 5 Nf3,  5.. b5 is quite popular with many top grandmasters. Check out a database to see their games.

Hello. I don't know how to solve this problem but i can give you one line against whites move order. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 (3. Nf3 is more flexible) dxc4  4. e4 b5  5. a4 b4 and the N has to move again. You continue with 6...Nf6 to attack e4 pawn.

4. ...Bf5 is actually just fine for Black.  It's one of the main lines.

For example, 5. Qb3 Qb6! 6. c5 Qc7! is just fine for Black, since White has relieved the pressure in the center and played e3 (since if White had instead played Nf3, he would have the option of Bf4! here, with advantage).

5. cxd5 cxd5 6. Qb3 Nc6!? is probably fine for Black, he gets quite a bit for his pawn after 7. Qxb7 Bd7 8. Qb3 Rb8 9. Qd1 e5.

If you'd rather avoid that, then another possibility is 6. ...Qb6, which is perfectly fine for Black: 7. Nxd5 Nxd5 8. Qxd5 Qb4+ 9. Bd2 Qxb2 and 9. Kd1 are both okay.

Also possible is 6. ...Bc8, since White's queen is not especially well placed on b3 in this line :)

You might want to look into 3...dxc4 as well.  It's quite sound and a valid way to challenge White's choice of 3.Nc3 rather than 3.Nf3.

Best is 4.e4 b5 which resembles the Geller Gambit which you've surely studied.  Instead 4.a4? e5! and Black equalizes immediately.

6. ...Qd7 is a poor move.  You should instead play 6. ...Qb6!

I thought 6.c5 was the right idea in these kinds of positions. 

Not quite, since White has played e3, c5 is not really dangerous, since the Black queen can go back to c7 without worrying about Bf4.  And since the central tension has been relieved, Black is perfectly okay.  If, instead of 4. e3, White has played 4. Nf3, then Bf5?! is wrong, and 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Bf5?! 5. Qb3 Qb6 6. c5! Qxb3 (6. ...Qc7?! 7. Bf4! and with Ne5 Rc1 and e4! to come, Black is in serious trouble) 7. axb3 is much better for White. 

Oh good catch. 

I would take the white pieces anyday after 6.Qxb6 axb6 7.cxd5 cxd5.

Black can probably hold because White has no easy way to take advantage of the pawn structure, but he has zero counterplay.

6. Qxb6? is not good for White, in fact I actually think Black is already better on move 6. Black's doubled b-pawns are not at all weak (in fact they will prove nearly impossible for White to create counterplay based on), Black's rook on a8 is now a monster, and White's spatial advantage is gone, while his bishop remains stranded on c1. The whole point of 5. ...Qb6 is that Black would love to have White play Qxb6?, since it solves most of Black's problems. I would actually classify 6. Qxb6? as a positional mistake, and say that White will have to be careful to avoid losing even in the very simplified position.

And Black should play 7. ...Nxd5, not 7. ...cxd5, when even Stockfish agrees White has less than nothing, despite Black's "pawn weaknesses."

You mean, before a2-a3 or a2-a4 is played ?

I don't trust engine evaluations a lot in this kind of positions where the fastest plan will take ten moves to happen.

7. ...Nxd5 8. f3 Nb4 is nice for Black. After the better 8. Nxd5 cxd5, Black's position is quite pleasant.

9.e4, and after 9...Nc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.exf5 the knight will not escape, unless I am missing something. And 9...Bg6 (or e6) 10.Kd1 fails to impress me.

Irontiger wrote:

clunney wrote:

7. ...Nxd5 8. f3 Nb4 is nice for Black.

9.e4, and after 9...Nc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.exf5 the knight will not escape, unless I am missing something. And 9...Bg6 (or e6) 10.Kd1 fails to impress me.

The Knight escapes, in fact it's Black's "weak" queenside pawns which free it via b5-b4-b3, leaving Black up an exchange.

Here's another Slav-related question for you guys- thanks for the responses on this one. I don't dislike Schlechter Slavs and I might try g6 next time this happens.

Anyhow, I don't want to make a new thread so I'll just ask here- I don't understand why Slav players often elect to recapture with the e-pawn when white plays cxd5 (I am asking about positions in the late stages of the opening, presumably after black has already developed the bad bishop on c8, so that there would be no "opening-up" of the position for the bishop involved). By doing so, it seems to me that he just creates a Carlsbad structure in which white has the clear plan of advancing his b-pawn on the queenside while black can't get counterplay as easily. Furthermore, he gives white two center pawns and captures away from the center. I feel that ...cxd5 might be more intuitive and I have heard a lot of players suggest that this is the inferior recapture.

It seems a very common 1.d4 club player belief that white is automatically better in any Carlsbad structure. In fact black has their trumps too half open e-file directly compensates for c-file, e4 square for knight, Whilst white is feeding peices to queenside to support minority attack, black can attack the king. Without seeing the exactly positions it might be that black just thinks the symmetrical positions after cxd5 are deadly dull. 

I think I like the 3. Nc3 dxc4 lines better than any of the sidelines available after 4...g6 or 4...a6, unless anyone can convince me otherwise. Of course this is a very old thread, but it's still something I run into periodically in OTB games. I did have one game fairly recently where I gave the Schlecter a try against a ~1500 in a tournament, and made an interesting Bf5 move followed by Bxf5 gxf5, doubling my pawns but stopping white from playing e4. I got a reasonable position but went on to spectacularly throw it away, which was a real shame given that I was a lot higher rated than my opponent. But I do think that while the Schlecter is an okay solution, it's awkward for me to play because of problems developing the c8-bishop.