1. e4 Nc6

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mattattack99

After 1. e4 Nc6, in every book I have read that mentioned this opening, they always recommend 2. Nf3, transposing into other openings. 2. d4 seems logical, why is this hardly played?

Mezmer

Looking at it, I can't see any reason why 2. d4 wouldn't work, and it performs well enough at first glance in the databases. Perhaps the recommendation for 2. Nf3 is more to try and steer things back into more familiar waters?

Silfir

It's because the Nimzowitsch defence is so rare, white usually knows next to nothing about it, so they play 2. Nf3 in hopes that they'll get their Italian, Scotch, Spanish book and dismiss that 1. Nc6 as something out of a bad dream. Nothing to be said against 2. d4, that's the main line. Black replies 2...d5 or 2...e5 and continues to play in a hypermodern fashion (Nimzowitsch invented this, what do you expect?).

blake78613

I don't know what books ReasonableDoubt has been reading, but d4 is a logical  response.  The game generally ends up in a French defense where Black has blocked the thematic ...c5 break with his queen knight.  White doesn't have to know a lot of theory to play the position.

blake78613

After 2..e5 White can transpose to the Scotch with 3.Nf3.  The main line Scotch is very hard to equalize against, and is on a par with the Spanish as the most  serious White e4 opening.

ChrisWainscott
I played the white side of 2. d4 in a tournament game just a week ago. It went 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 e5 3. Nf3 to go into the Scotch...
Ghuzultyy
I lost one game with this opening years ago and never played again :D 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5?! 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Be2 Bxf3 6.Bxf3 Qxd4?? 7.Bxc6+ 1-0
Vyomo

You could also play 2.Nc3! transposing into the Vienna.

I tried this against some friends, they lost pretty quickly due to non-familiarity with the Vienna ideas.

mattattack99

I looked at my book and after 2. d4 I see that black can play 2...d5 as well.

Anyway,  think after 1. e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3. d5 Nce7, I don't think white should push his c pawn:

Mm40

You can see an article Silman wrote about 1. d4 Nc6 here. It naturally includes lines with 2. e4, which would transpose into what you're asking about.

mattattack99

My apologies. I accidentally dropped the bishop on e2 rather than d3

zschess

I also prefer 2.d4,which is usually good.This controls the center.

In the other hand,2.Nf3 develops a piece and also gives control on d5.

But the opening you want to play is what you prefer.

jason17

Hey ReasonableDoubt, do you ever play the root variation? 1.e4 nc6 2.Nf3 f5

http://www.chess.com/article/view/two-general-qs-and-the-root-variation

I played this for a little while before, and had a lot of fun with it, but there might be some problems with it.

MaartenSmit

In modern theory, you could say that 1. ... Nc6 is considered inferior to 1. ... e5. After all, 1. ... Nc6 is (almost) never played among strong players, whereas 1. ... e5 is one of the most common moves. You can't argue which of 2. d4 and 2. Nf3 is the better move, because 2. Nf3 lets black transpose to normal lines with 2. ... e5. If 2. Nf3 were the best move, then 1. ... Nc6 cannot be inferior to 1. ... e5. Therefore 2. d4 must be the best move.

However, I think it is true that the psychological effect of this opening can be very strong for black. White may think that 1. ... Nc6 is inferior to 1. ... e5 and that he must show it to his opponent by refuting the opening, getting an advantage in the opening, and most of all white will try to avoid main line openings, because they don't show why 1. ... Nc6 is worse.

For example; maybe the white player is good at sharp, tactical positions. He plays 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 (2. Nf3 lets black transpose with 2. ... e5, and is therefore bad) 2. ... e5 3. d5 (not 3. Nf3 because it transposes into the Scotch). Now black has achieved his goal, because white has closed the center, probably making it a positional, not so sharp game. Maybe the Scotch is an important part of the white player's opening repertoire, but his obsession with 'refuting' 1. ... Nc6 made him steer the game into positions he doesn't know and isn't comfortable playing, just because he didn't want to transpose into main lines.

This may sound farfetched, but it has happened to me. The Scotch is one of my main weapons with white. Most players at my club always play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6, and I've gotten a lot of experience with the Scotch this way. But many players play 1. ... Nc6. I usually go 2. d4 e5 3. d5, because I know 3. d5 must be better than 3. Nf3, because otherwise 1. ... Nc6 wouldn't be considered worse than 1. ... e5. Now for me this isn't a problem, because I play KID with black against 1. d4, and I'm familiar with closed structures like this. But I know there are players who always try to steer the game into a tactical open game, and against those players I think 1. ... Nc6 is a powerful weapon.

mattattack99

So, in correspondence I might as well play 2. d4, because I can use opening books. In live chess I'll probably play 2. Nf3 though.

i_r_n00b

 2 d4 is really good for white and bad for black in most lines.  i think i would play 2 d4 or transpose, depending on how i feel like it.

i don't get why people say they like playing this because they think they have more experience than their opponent. your opponent is the one that is gonna choose which line they are most comfortable or experience with. more likely than not, you will be playing against a line that your opponent is more booked on than you are.

 

i_r_n00b
gambitlover wrote:
i_r_n00b wrote:

 2 d4 is really good for white and bad for black in most lines.  i think i would play 2 d4 or transpose, depending on how i feel like it.

i don't get why people say they like playing this because they think they have more experience than their opponent. your opponent is the one that is gonna choose which line they are most comfortable or experience with. more likely than not, you will be playing against a line that your opponent is more booked on than you are.

 


 You clearly show you are not familiar with this opening. 5. .. Nf6? is just bad, the right move is 5. .. 0-0-0 ( as per Myers, Harding, Keilhack). 


i just used the game explorer for what moves black would play, while i picked the white moves. on 5 0-0-0, the game explorer shows that white scores even higher than in the line 5 nf6. also, those two line have quite a bit of a chance to transpose into eachother. can you care to explain why 5 nf6 is just " bad" while 5 0-0-0 is the "correct" move?

5...Nf6 177
42.4% 26% 31.6%
5...O-O-O 116
51.7% 22.4% 25.9%
wu345

I would play d4 to both control the center and open up both bishop lines. However Nf3 is just as good, developing a piece whilst simultaneously attacking the center.

mattattack99

I know even less about 2...d5 than 2...e5

i_r_n00b
ReasonableDoubt wrote:
i_r_n00b wrote:
gambitlover wrote:

0-0-0 increases the tension on the d4 pawn and forces white to defend.  Nf6 does nothing and hands white the move on a silver platter.  I honestly don't care what the numbers say, 0-0-0 is the correct move to make.  Please tell me how this line is bad for black, as it's one way that games from the opening continue (the other main ones are 6. Nc3 and 6. c4).  0-0-0 scores decently for black (47% in my database) and there's nothing wrong with it.  However, the reason that I switched to e5 Nimzo instead of d5 Nimzo is because I don't enjoy the positions after 3. Nc3.


white play 6 c4 not be3