1.Nc3 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 Scotch with a delayed e4

I felt like shaking things up a bit and playing 1.Nc3 for a bit.  I recall a thread explaining how after 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nxe4 you basically get a caro kann but white hasn't had to spend a tempo playing c6.  Not sure openings really matter all that much at 1300 so much as dropping pieces left and right, but disclaimer, yeah I know it's bad.  

So I'm curious about

Does anyone know of any tricky variations that happen only because e4 has been delayed?  I remember seeing someone go over this with me a few years back at a coffee shop but for the life of me I can't find much information on it.  I got the book Knight on the left, but I find books to be hard to learn from with chess.  Traps and/or unique lines that I should know?  

What's better, this

or this

Lines found in this thread:  https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/van-geet-repertoire?quote_id=36151004&page=1#comment_box

7.be3 is quite tricky. 

what you mention earlier about a caro without c6 thrown in, that line of thought works both ways though. White has not quite committed to an early d4, so he can play many interesting formations like bc4-d3 qe2,  early f4 nf2 stuff, early nf3 hoping to get an early bishop pair after bf5, early g3 lines etc.

I used to play 1.Nc3 back in the mid-2000s.  There is even a 400 page book called "Knight on the Left: 1.Nc3".

1...e5 is actually one of the weakest moves Black can play.  1...d5 is strongest, but 1...c5 and 1...Nf6 are "ok".

After 1...e5?!, 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4, there are all kinds of Knight tricks that Black has to watch out for, and no weak e-pawn to attack.  If I remember correctly, I believe White fianchettos the Bishop and does not advance the e-pawn at all.

I believe, if memory serves me right, that if both sides play the best moves after 1.Nc3, you end up in what is called the Van Geet Opening (1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4 3.Nce2 e5! 4.Ng3 Be6! (Stopping Bc4)).  Pawn will go to f6, N's to c6 and e7, big question mark is what to do with the bad bishop.

I'm trying to find information on the types of knight tricks you're talking about and how to spot them.  I did download Knight on the Left last knight and it looks intimidating but I'm sure I'll learn a lot with it.  The Van Geet line with 2...d4 3.Ne2 is why I play this opening.  I love that line.  I play it with black all the time as part of the Nimzowitch defense.  My plan is usually to get a knight on f5, open up the f file, bring my queen to the king side and use my 2 knights, bishop, rook and queen to launch an attack on the king.  I know there's a lot of talk about c3, but I've stuck to my normal routine.  I don't see the Be6 lines at my level, but I would probably play Bb5 then back it up to b6 and let him take my bishop.  I don't like having the f pawn on e6 because it keeps me from putting a knight on f5.  

As for the Caro Kann line that you mention where white doesn't play d4, I have to be honest.  I've been transposing to a Blackmar Deimer.  And I'm sure better players find this unplayable, but I've had a lot of fun playing it.  I play Bc4 and d3 instead of d4 a lot of times.  I'm curious if Qxf3 would be more playable in this line since Qxd4 is not a possible response.   No halosar trap but you how often does that really happen anyway?

edit.  A few traps I found on youtube.

There is a line in the psuedo-Caro with Qf3.

1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 c6 3.Qf3, which I recall being in that book.

The Tubingen gambit is fun too.  Directly transposed to the Bronstein Gambit with best play.

Tubingen - 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.g4 Nxg4 3.e4 d6 4.Be2 Nf6 5.d4.

Bronstein - 1.d4 Nf6 2.g4 Nxg4 3.e4 d6 4.Be2 Nf6 5.e4

Having played Nc3 instead of d4 gives white an improved scotch because piece play offerts some tactics and issues for black to develop like a classical scotch.

Some quick analysis :

Thank you!  That was very helpful.  So far I mainly see exd4 Nxd4 Nxd4 Qxd4.  Such is the life of a patzer.  You learn about a cool opening and never get to play the most well know lines.  I did have this little miniature today, though...

I was planning on sacrificing that bishop so I could nab the queen’s rook and have the discovery set up.  I hadn’t worked it out too well but apparently it was the right move.  Played out differently though.

oh and I remember the variation I was shown in the coffee shop years back or part of it.  It was where black fiancettos.  There is no time to play g6 and Bb7.   

the lines where black trades everything on d4 tend to give white an easy and confortable edge, you will usually play e4, 0-0-0 ,h3 f4 g4, black is usually left with an insipid philidor like structure. If black really knows what he is doing, he might hope to break even, but White is really in the driver seat 

luckily, half the people that play it this way are patzers, so they tend to not play the black side of this right. They usually either get steamrolled by the massive pawnstorm which takes some timing and skill to handle, or they end up with a weak d6 pawn they eventually lose

Apparently the stats aren't good for this line, but I've enjoyed playing it. 1.Nc3 f5 2.e4 exf4 3.d3 exd3 4.Bxd3.   It's like that gambit with the bird...  Fromm's maybe?  

Also thanks for clarifying the plan to the last poster.  Much obliged.

this line is actually really good for white, even the engine gives white the edge. It's very easy for black to  get blown out of the board. White will play, bg5 with ne4 sometimes thrown in for good measure. 

Its basically a Bird From's gambit, except you get the extra queen knight's tempo which often is a tempo lost not attacking. Without having to waste that tempo the gambit's attack is far more powerful, (it can help out clearing black defenses via ne4 as said earlier, but you also get a quick 0-0-0)