1. Nf3

I have been playing Nf3 as my main opening move lately, and I've noticed in the databases that if black plays 1..d5 and challenges your center, you can play c4 to try and attack his center with a wing pawn. 

I was wondering if just playing 1. d4 was better than 1. Nf3?? 

What are the pros and cons for both starting moves?

-Thanks

It depends on the openings you are looking for.  While 1.Nf3 can reach 1.d4 openings, it is used more when transposing to the English or the Reti opening.  In other words, it is mainly just a move order trick.  You get different options, but you lose others. 

Well if you consider yourself a beginner, I'd recommend 1. d4 as simply easier to learn. Both moves have merits, they're both equally good, but for a less experienced player 1. Nf3 is more difficult just because of its transpositional possibilities. (I don't mean to insult you if you aren't a new player )

The deal with 1. Nf3 is that it can turn into a bunch of other openings because White hasn't commited a pawn to the center. With 1. d4 there are only a few major systems you'll encounter: Queen's Gambit, Indian defenses, maybe a budapest gambit every so often or Pirc/Queen's Indian setups. With 1. Nf3 you have most of these, plus most every opening starting with 1. e4, c4, g3 Nc3... that's a lot of openings.

So it's a bit easier to understand 1. d4 since there's a more limited field of possibilities, IMO.

Thanks for your feedback everyone!

1. Nf3 and 1.c4 are both transpositional but the transpositions are not quite the same. I may be wrong about this but I think that with 1.c4 you need to be prepared to transpose into a d4 opening (or let go of the advantage of the first move) while with 1. Nf3 you need to be prepared to play a d4 opening with reversed colors. I prefer 1. Nf3 then.

Amen!

I've been switching to just playing 1. d4 now. If black plays into the QGA lines, does white have a new objective of playing e4, or Rb1, b4 etc.

So basically I'm asking of white's future plans after the opening, if black accepts the gambit pawn.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Gambit_Accepted

I prefer 3. e3, since it's pretty solid and it can be good for an attack. Also against inexperienced players who want to hold the c-pawn, you will often run into the following delicious trap as White:

Other lines for the QGA are included in the notes and moves list. Take a look once you try the puzzle. In most of the variations you seem to get to one of these positions:

1. Isolated queen pawn positions where White will play to keep pieces on the board and push for an attack. Give this one a search on Wikipedia, they're too long to explain here.

2. Early drawish variations where Black either trades a lot of pieces off or gets into a defensive setup.

Other sorts of positions are possible. White should play for piece activity, possibly an attack on f7 or castling early and playing Re1 and pawn e4 for space.

With the other ideas:

3. e4 - Grabbing the center. Rules out the above trap, but keeps initiative. White will try to keep his center for an attack. Black may try 3... e5 or try to undermine the strong center.

3. Nf3 - to control the center/d-pawn and develop the kingside. It's actually considered the main line. Wikipedia gives a better rundown, but it looks like White will try to get an isolated queen pawn attack going, or things will get (vaguely) complicated with pressure on the b and f pawns, or there will be a quick draw after the queens are off early.

Wow that was really helpful, thanks

I'm going to try playing 3. Nf3 now, and I'll give you some feedback. I get a lot of people who are 'determined' to hang on to that pawn though. Can you provide some examples of how to crush black if he trys to hang on to the pawn; please be as creative as possible.

I don't think 1.Nf3, d5 2. C4 is the best idea because black can simply ignore and push to d4 which temporarily disables your queenside knight.

I like using 1.Nf3, D5 2.e3

Kf3 then C4 is the Reti and will not transpose unless white wants it to

@Batezzz - For black to push the d-pawn again is bad, you just have to understand why.  After 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4 3. e3, black has no good way of getting a second defender to protect the pawn, so 3. ..dxe3 4. fxe3 is mandatory, and the restriction of white's queenside knight is illusory.  Just as importantly, after white castles, the open f-file becomes an immediate asset.

Of course, it's also bad for black to take the c-pawn.  1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 dxc4?! 3. e3! and the pawn is regained with a developing move.  Black can try to hang on to the pawn but he simply bungles his development and pawn structure even more in the process, e.g. 3. ..b5 4. Nc3 a6?! 5. a4!, or 3. ..Be6?! 4. Nd4! 

The Reti Opening must be understood from the hypermodern perspective on the center.  The moves 1. ..d6 and 1. ..Nc6 may look like they prepare an e5 thrust, but they don't prepare it adequately, which is why neither move is played at high levels.  The Reti system (1. Nf3 followed by 2. c4) constricts black's center, there's no way black can hold on in the center if he tries to occupy it quickly.

Play e4 it's better.

It really isn't, though.  I was a 1. e4 player before I switched to the Reti, and I get much better results now.  The move 1. e4 commits too much to a plan, and gives black too much flexibility in reply.  The move 1. Nf3 puts the question to black, but doesn't really give black any good options for central development.  There are transpositions available, but they are all at white's option.

What you say is not true either.  White does not dictate all the shots.

After 1.Nf3:

- 1...d5 - English and e4-openings eliminated.  White's only real options are a Reti, QP Opening, Nimzo-Larsen Attack, or continue with a fianchetto which will likely lead eventually to a QP opening or Reti unless White wants a bad version of the Kings Indian Attack.

1...Nf6 (w/o ...d5) - Reti and e4 openings Eliminated - no commitment by either side, and if g3/Bg2/O-O, Black can safely mimic

1...f5 - You will pretty much be in Dutch territory.  Only question is do you transpose, or play some innocuous side line

1...c5 - Reti eliminated - Pretty much looking at an English, Sicilian, or Anti-Benoni.

1...g6 - There really is no dodging the Modern Defense except via 1.b3 and 1.b4.

So no, White does NOT call the shots with 1.Nf3.  There are no openings where one side calls all the shots!

@ThrillerFan - You're inferring more from my prior post than I actually said.  Yes, black has options as always (you are correct in that respect), but each of them commits to a particular central plan.  Black can't occupy and hold the center in classical fashion, but he does have to commit to something in the center.  Even the symmetric 1. ..Nf6 is a commitment of sorts, as it turns d5 into a battleground (as a Reti player wants).  It does not eliminate the Reti - Reti himself replied with 2. c4 and 3. b4 when Capablanca played 1. ..Nf6, and we know how that turned out.

I actually play 1. ..c5 against the Reti when I see it, but it still leaves an open center, which is what white wants.  It's what I want, too, so it's not really a problem for me.  The point is that it's still thematically a Reti, as 2. c4 still does what the Reti intends in the center.

The point was that no matter what black plays, white can transpose in some way, shape or form, from a true Reti into some other, very different opening.  In other words, black has to wait to see what white's true intentions are.  Black can limit those options with his initial reply to some extent, but the basic theme of an open (or at least tense and thus easily re-openable) center remains in place, and white will always have a viable option to transpose.

The Reti Opening is closely related to the English Opening, so there are thematic similarities, the main difference being that an early e5 is out of play.  Further, 1. Nf3 is used more often to transpose than it is to actually play a Reti these days.  Black won't be sure it's a Reti until move 2, and if he plays the main line 1. ..d5, black will have to leave either the QGA or QGD transpositions on the table for quite some time.

I've been playing the Reti for a few years now, and not once have I come out of the opening poorly.  I've seen every one of the replies you list above from at least one player rated 1900 or better, and I have played 2. c4 to good effect against each and every one of them.  I can transpose out of the Reti system if I want to, but I usually don't (occasionally I'll turn it into a QGA or QGD if that's what the opponent leaves me).  Every attempt black has made to occupy the center against me has failed, often at the cost of a pawn, and always the center opens up to white's advantage.

White doesn't dictate what black will do, but it does shut down the classical approach to the center.  White can transpose to a classical opening if he wants, but black has no such options.

Also, I wanted to address the 1. Nf3 g6 line specifically.  This can still work out the same basic way, that is 1. Nf3 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 and now if 3. ..Bxc3?! black is saddled with dark square weakness for the rest of the game.  Yes, white has to accept doubled c-pawns, but black is most certainly worse.  The Experts I've played this line against never take on c3, and there's a good reason for it.

Lasker considered the king's bishop to be a 1/2 pawn more valuable than the other minor pieces, and this particular line does seem to endorse that notion.

Who in their right mind would play 3...Bxc3?

3...d6 would be the most likely response.  3...c6 is ok as well.  3...Nf6 is fine but transposes to 1...Nf6 lines.

And from the other post, how can you say that White doesn't commit anything with 1.Nf3, but Black's move of 1...Nf6 is committal?  1...Nf6 is no more committal than 1.Nf3!  SMH!

You talk like I have no clue about any of this.  I probably know more about the Reti than you do, actually!  For example, back in the summer, I played in a Correspondence tournament (one of many) on ICCF (I still have about 70 games going, but this one is done), where I was White in the following game.

So trust me, I don't need lessons on the Reti, but many of your claims are false.  The Reti and the English has substantial differences to them.  I am also very well aware of the 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.b4 Bg7 4.Bb2 line that I presume you are referring to in another post.

Also, you say that 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 is thematically a Reti.  Uhm, NO!  It is thematically a Symmetrical English!

For the same reason, 1.c4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 is NOT an English!  It's a Reti, despite the 1.c4 move!

And ...e5 cannot completely be stopped.  The reverse dragon may not be possible with 1.Nf3, but the reverse Closed can:

1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3 d6 and 1.Nf3 d6 2.c4 e5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7, for example, are the same thing.  There are probably more move orders to this position then there are fingers on your hands.  It is an English, by definition!

Looks like with your 1435 rating that you should be doing more asking and less telling since clearly you only know a limited amount of what you are talking about!