(after 1. e4 e5) 2. Nc3 vs 2. Nf3

This forum is where we can talk about which move is better.

2. Nc3 or 2. Nf3.

Cam

There are better things to do

I'll start us off.

I think it is fairly balanced really. Nf3 is more common and you get really nice attacks ( for example Lolli Attack ,which I love, and the Fried Liver ) but has easy counterplay and your opponent gets nice attacks aswell. For example 3. Bc4 Bg5.

Nc3 is the Vienna game. I love this opening and I play it often. You get lovely attacks going fairly quickly, and for black it is supremely hard to play against.

Damn it Adam, you beat me to it.

But surely Nc3 doesn't do anything. d5 is still possible, and so this is just going to transpose into a queen pawn game. Nf3 is stronger because it attacks e5.

Nytik, Go on game explorer or look in the Openings book. Look up The Vienna Game. You will see why you get lovely attacks.

Both are good, no scrach that great

2. Nf3 is better and more common than 2. Nc3 no matter if you play 1.e4 or 1. d4 first.

After 2.Nc3, you're either playing a Vienna or a 4 Knights. After 2.Nf3 the path is still open and there are dozens of possible openings you can end up playing.

I would probably play Nc3 if I didn't have excellent results with the ruy lopez... However, as it is, it's really not worth it at all

"Nf3 blocks the queen and the f pawn...and the ability to use those pieces are very important in some 2.nc3 lines."

Why is that relevant? If you're playing 2. Nf3, then you obviously don't care about important elements in Nc3 lines...besides moving the f-pawn early in the opening is very dubious says FIDE Master Mike Klein not to mention that 2. Nf3 is 37x more common than 2. Nc3 at the grandmaster level! And actually Nf3 is more restricting than Nc3 which means it limits black's play and alows white to control the opening more, so I believe Nf3 is better.

"I feel like 2 nc3 is somewhat more in the spirit of 1e4 because white continues simply playing for maximum flexibility/mobility without being so worried about black counterplay."

I disagree with this as well. The spirit of 1. e4 is to be an attacking opening which is something 2. Nf3 accomplishes, as you are attacking the e5 pawn and limiting black's possible replies. 2. Nc3 fails to attack because you are not attacking anything! (pretty straightforward:).

2. Nc3 is the Vienna Game.

A general opening principle is that the best opening moves are those that attack while they develop a piece. The Vienna Game, Bishop's Opening,  Four Knights Game, and Classical Variation of the Nimzo-Indian Defense are said to lack impetus and therefore they give Black too much freedom, which reduces the likelihood of White winning. Therefore 2. Nf3 is better is 2. Nc3.

----------

(p. 89)
      VIENNA GAME
   (1 P-K4, P-K4; 2 N-QB3)

THE VIENNA is an introverted brother of the King's Gambit, into which
it may transpose at several points. It is played with a view to a quick
attack; but Black has a number of good equalizing defences and
frequently gets an advantage. "The strength of
his move (2 N-QB3)--paradoxically--is that
it threatends nothing," writes Tartakover. And
Weaver Adams, whose name might well be
affixed to it because he has based his "White to
Play and Win" system on it, writes that "2
N-QB3 conforms most to principles, develops
naturally, prepares P-KB4, prevents ...
P-Q4, keeps the Q1-R5 diagonal open, and
fortifies the King's pawn." But the "strength"
of 2 N-QB3 is also its weakness--it lacks
impetus.

(p. 377)

   THE CLASSICAL VARIATION, marked by 4 Q-B2, leads to a drab
game without chances for either side, though sometimes White is a
little freer. It is now regarded as an old system, somewhat played out.
Black can equalize with 4 ... P-Q4 (cols. 1-10), 4 ... P-B4 (cols.
11-15), 4 ... N-B3 (cols. 16-21), 4 ... O-O (cols 25-30). The
absence of a threat (other than P-K4, if that can be regarded as one),
as well as the premature development of White's Queen, holds little
future for this system if White wants to avoid drawish set-ups.

Evans, Larry, and Walter Korn. 1965. Modern Chess Openings, 10th Edition. New York: Pitman Publishing Corporation.

(p. 30)
      Four Knight's Game:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nc3 Nf6

In this relatively tame opening
White departs from his usual
attempt to get the better of it with
an early d4 and relies solely on his
extra move. Because of the paucity
of direct threats Black can content
himself with copying his
opponent's moves and is therefore
faced by no difficult problems at
an early stage. Later on, however,
he must watch his step because he
cannot continue aping the other
fellow indefinitely. He can also, if
he so desires, try a most promising
attack of his own (Rubinstein
Defence).

Fine, Reuben. 1989. The Ideas Behind the Chess Openings, Algebraic Edition. New York: Random House, Inc.

Weaver Adams tested his "white to play and win" system against Harry Lyman in a match where Adams had white each game. Lyman won the match and the Vienna faded from view for another 30 years or so.

He's Shelby's uncle.

I favor 2. Nc3 because of the transpostion to the Kings Gambit. Even though it is not favored by GM's it is fun at a club level.

If back responds 2....Nf6, it begs me to transpose as there is no 3....Qh4+

The answer here is the same when it comes to alot of questions about openings.  Nf3 is objectively better but that objective difference is irrelevant below master level.

True, but most players at my level seem to not play kings gambits b/c it is not favored at top levels. And when they play 2....e5 they are usually expecting a ruy lopez or something symmetrical. I also find, at my level, something like petrof's defense (when i play as black) seems to get people out of their comfort zone. Chess games particularly exciting at low club level. Lol

icyviper wrote:

Garrett84 wrote:

I favor 2. Nc3 because of the transpostion to the Kings Gambit. Even though it is not favored by GM's it is fun at a club level.

If back responds 2....Nf6, it begs me to transpose as there is no 3....Qh4+

not a transposition just because a pawn gets to f4...that's just typical Vienna fun =)