Any good lines against the Winawer Variation?

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Marcyful

I've been playing the classical against the French since it is quite objectively the best response to the French, but I run into quite a bit of trouble and unfamiliarity when my opponent goes for the Winawer:

Any good lines I could go for so I at least wouldn't be on my own on move 4?

Marcyful

I'll take a look into this Alekhine-Maroczy Gambit and play a few practice games in this position with Level 5 Stockfish. Thanks for the suggestion. happy.png

Marcyful

As for the Tarrasch, I get its main purpose is to avoid the Winawer completely, but it doesn't apply any pressure to the d5 pawn and blocks in my dark squared bishop as well. Not exactly a fan of that.

ThrillerFan

As a French player and one that plays the White side as well, the most difficult line for Black is the 7.h4 variation.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.h4!

There is lots of coverage on this in various Winawer books.

blueemu

I usually avoid the whole mess by answering 1. e4 e6 with 2. d3 instead of 2. d4.

The King's Indian Attack (which 2. d3 leads to) is a perfectly playable opening.

tygxc

This was the Fischer way
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044346 

blueemu
tygxc wrote:

This was the Fischer way

Fischer vs Myagmarsuren, Sousse Interzonal, 1967. 

 

 

mpaetz

     The Winawer is popular partly because there are such a variety of systems available to both sides that lead to different types of games, from wide-open attacks/counter-attacks to dour positional struggles, making it endlessly fascinating. If you want to play against the classical French you have to leave yourself open to the Winawer.

     Probably your best option is to learn a couple of rarely-played lines that your opponents may not know. These lines are rare because they give black easy equality with best play but you'll catch some people unawares and won't risk disaster yourself. Note that some of the suggestions given here are predicated on black going into known inferior lines.

     I remember Bobby Fischer said that he didn't think the Winawer was really sound, but even he couldn't come up with a good plan to defeat it. His record against it wasn't as good as when he played players of the same strength in other openings.

A-mateur
 
When I played 1.e4 I used to play this gambit against the Winawer : 
 

 

ItsBenjaminTheChessMan

This gambit is really good.

 

 

darkunorthodox88

I also advocate for the  exchange Winawer, and you can throw in an early qf3 if you want extra spice. bb4 adds much needed asymmetry to the position and in many lines, white can snatch the bishop pair.

dybken

Don't play 2...Nc3, try KIA.

sndeww

A good line against the Winawer is the mainline (Lol) with e5 and a3. White may play Qg4 if he is feeling brave, or h4 if he’s booked up, or Nf3 if he isn’t. 

sndeww
dybken wrote:

Don't play 2...Nc3, try KIA.

Alternatively, you could answer the question asked by the OP.

SwimmerBill

What I like to play vs Winawer is the poison pawn, Qg4, variation. There are several possibilities here and I've play 3 of them. Currently I'm liking Geller's idea where you delay Qx 1 move for Bd3 and Qx next. I've had a lot of friends playing Winawer so I've practiced these lines in many blitz games. It's odd but most e4 players avoid this line so often I've felt like I've had more games in it than the Winawer player I'm facing. It's a tense game and black can have a lot of fun attacking in those lines but , so far, I'm doing OK in them.

ThrillerFan
SwimmerBill wrote:

What I like to play vs Winawer is the poison pawn, Qg4, variation. There are several possibilities here and I've play 3 of them. Currently I'm liking Geller's idea where you delay Qx 1 move for Bd3 and Qx next. I've had a lot of friends playing Winawer so I've practiced these lines in many blitz games. It's odd but most e4 players avoid this line so often I've felt like I've had more games in it than the Winawer player I'm facing. It's a tense game and black can have a lot of fun attacking in those lines but , so far, I'm doing OK in them.

 

There is no Bd3 and then Qxg7.  If Black knows what he is doing, you only get 1 chance to take on g7.  You reject it with 8.Bd3 and no g7-pawn for YOU!

 

7...Qc7 8.Bd3 c4! 9.Be2 Nf5!

 

White's biggest problem is piece coordination in this line, or lack thereof!

SwimmerBill

Good conversation TF!

My notes say the line is

1.4 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e5 c4 5 a3 Bxc3 6 bxc3 Qc7 7 Qg4 Ne7

8 Bd3 cxd4 9 Ne2 dxc3 10 Qxg7 etc  (which I like a lot for white)

and in your suggestion it is

8 Bd3 c4  9 Be2 Nf5 10 Qh3! is good for white.  

I have never had the c5 line played against me but it may be a current trend. I'll look at games with it! Thanks! (I have seen games with other options for black at move 8 but not c4.)

SwimmerBill

Just found more notes I made on the variation. I have written down a second plan from a GM game: White plays Nf3-h4 swaps the knight [easing congestion on Kside] the h4 h5 h6 & plays against dark squares. This is a more classical French position game & less of an open position. But the French is a tough struggle for both players regardless. I dont think any of these lines are a clear advantage-- just that it gives a position that I'm happy to play & have experience with.

(I also have 8 Bd3 Qa5 9 Bd2 c4 as a line with a different plan for white--I'd remember these better if people played then against me & I lost some games with them!)