best opening against e4 for a King's Indian player

Hello kind people I'm a semi-professional chess player with deep love and passion for the game. I have been playing King's Indian for past one or two years with exceptional results. But I've always struggled to understand what should I play against e4. I usually play d4 and also play the King's Indian Attack setup sometimes which is basically a reversed KID. I usually play the sharpest main lines with d4. But against e4 I have always struggled. I prefer Richter-Rauzer but again there are a tons of Anti-Sicilians. So guys please help me out.... especially if there's any rare breed like me who plays d4 with white and KID with black (Danil Yuffa and Kozul Zdenko are probably only two players of such kind). Have a great day !

I guess it depends on what variation you’re happy to play. I think the French might make sense, as there are a lot of closed pawn structures, but there are others on here with better understanding of the French than me.

 

That is exactly what I was going to say.  French Defense.  The French and Kings Indian fit hand in glove.  Sure, you have the Tarrasch and Exchange that tend to be more open, but in the case of the Advance and the Winawer, look at the comparisons to the Mar Del Plata:

• Both see the center blocked
• Both have long pawn chains - a main theme in both openings.  Levers a hot topic in both openings.
• Both openings the play is mainly on the wings due to the blocked center.
• Both openings the strategy is based on the direction that the blocked pawns point.  In the French, White attacks Kingside and Black Queenside.  In the Kings Indian Mar Del Plata, Black attacks kingside and white queenside.
• In every opening, due to going second, Black is going to have a problem piece.  If you know the Kings indian, you already understand the concept of the problem Bishop.  Black has a bad Bishop in the Kings indian (The dark-squared one).  For the French, it is the other one.  Those that hate bad Bishops and hence avoid the French, KID, QGD, etc are going to have problems with one of the Knights, like the Queen's Knight in the Chigorin Variation of the Ruy Lopez.  Might as well stick with you strength, which is dealing with a bad Bishop and knowing which endgame to avoid (Good N vs Bad B).

 

For me, this has been what I played for more than 5 years straight, though I myself am in the process of drifting away from the Kings Indian and going for the Nimzo/Bogo because of the 13.Rc1 line in the Mar Del Plata.  Too many problems for Black.

Well I guess you should consult Leela zero and also some in-depth analysis of Stockfish the cuz line is perfectly playable and it just needs some very concrete theoritical knowledge and requires some midnight oil to burn 🙃🙃

I completely disagree. As a Kings indian player, i wouldn't even consider playing the french. Just because the positions are locked, it isn't even a similar opening. In the Kings Indian you try to gain an initiative and attack the king. That's not what you do in the french. I would recommend either a sicilian, or 1. e5

 

You have played 2 games as White on here and none as Black.  Do you even understand the French?  to say that Black doesn't play for an initiative is ludicrious

 

 

 

The first one Black has the attack on d4, White needs to make progress while defending.

The second one sees Black with more active pieces and a lead in development for the IQP

The third sees Black often with a raging Kingside attack while having to watch out for his own King.

 

The French is not a passive defense by any stretch of the imagination!

First of, i just created this account, so of course i don't have a lot of games on here. Second, in those lines you gave white isn't playing very well. Third, yes i understand the french, i'm over 2100 fide. Fourth, when did i say the french is passive? Fifth, while the french doesn't have to be boring, it's a lot more positional than the Kings Indian.

Edit: The second line is ok, but black doesn't have an advantage, and no initiative yet at least.

Oh and i've played more than two games

ApolL26, if you think White isn't playing well, you don't understand the French.  Those are all main book lines.  The third one usually arises from the Universal System (3...Be7), but can also come from the Korchnoi Gambit, which is what that is.

 

The first is an ultra main line of the French Advance.

 

The second is one of White's 2 main responses in the Queen Check line of the open Tarrasch, the other is 9.Re1.  And when did I ever say Black has an advantage?  He has the initiative!  Not the same as the advantage.  You can have the initiative and be equal or worse!

 

To say White's isn't playing well is also ludicrious!

 

Also, the King is a positional defense.  Just because you have sacrifices near the King at the end doesn't make the overall Defense positional.  Even the book "An Opening Repertoire for the Positional Player" recommends the King's Indian against 1.d4 (Leningrad Dutch is Recommended in "An Opening Repertoire for the Attacking Player").

 

I have played the French for 25 years, and the King's Indian for the last 5 and a total of about 10 years or so.

 

You say the French is more positional than the King's Indian?  The Poisoned Pawn and Positional are polar opposites.  Mar Del Plata is far more positional!

You could play something that often leads to similar pawn structures you are already familiar with

Modern Pirc invites them to transpose to the KID

Closed Ruy Lopez structures are similar to the KID

some lines of the Najdorf and Sveshnikov also lead to the typical KID queenside vs kingside play

Or the Caro-Kann. If you are a main line d4 player, you probably have some experience with IQP, Carlsbad and Caro-Slav structures. If White doesn't go 3. e5 you will often end up in one of those structures.

Saying the truth, i use to play the exchange and you can draw pretty easy.

Ok maybe i'm wrong about the first line, but i don't think black is the one with the initiative. The second line as i said is normal, but i don't think black has an initiative yet there either. In the third line, the Knight doesn't go to f3, but e2.

Of course there are some positional lines in the Kings Indian since there are so many, but say for example the Be2-Be3-g4 line is very common, and that is definitely more of a sharp line. And in the main lines, you are literally just storming your pawns forward on the kingside, while he's doing the same on the queenside. And even in the positional lines, it's so different from the french. The french often has similar positional concepts to the QGD. So that would be a good suggestion to someone who plays that, and not the Kings Indian.

Another thing is that in the Kings Indian the pawns are on dark squares, while in the French they're on light squares. And while it may sound stupid, it makes a huge difference.

 

Again, I said the third line NORMALLY reaches from 3...Be7, but it is called the Universal System because there are multiple ways to get there, and White can indeed play 7.Ngf3, known as the Korchnoi Gambit.  So it is not that "Thr Knight doesn't go there", that just is not the main move IN THAT MOVE ORDER!

 

The same position comes from 3 different move orders, hence the name The Universal System:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Ndf7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ngf3 and Black declines the Korchnoi Gambit with 7...Be7.  Yes, the Knight CAN go to d2 in this move order, but it is not forced, and again, the MOST COMMON way to reach it is the third move order given below, but it CAN come this way!

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 c5 4.Ngf3 (the main alternative to 4.exd5) 4...Nf6 (Depending on what you play in the normal Tarrasch, Black will play this if he is normally a 4...exd5 and 5...Nf6 player, 4...Nc6 if a 4...exd5 and 5...Nc6 player, and most 4...Qxd5 players will play 4...cxd4) 5.e5 Nfd7 6.c3 Nc6 7.Bd3 and again 7...Be7.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Be7 (most common way to land at the Universal System) 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 Nc6.

 

And the French is nothing like the QGD except both feature a bad light squared Bishop.  Just because Black makes the same 2 pawn moves does not make the game similar at all.  In the French, does Black wait for a piece to develop and then take on e4?  No!  In the QGD, it is all about that f1-Bishop.  It moves, you take on c4.

 

There are lines where White and Black often storm pawns in the French.  The McCutcheon for example.  White plays an early h4.  Often times, if Black allows, it will go further to h5.  Black advances his Queenside pawns to create a potential passer if he survives White's onslaught.  Just like the Bishop sac on h3 in the Kings Indian, White is looking for that Bishop Sac on g6.

 

Openings are not similar at all just based on Black's pawns or White's pawns alone.  The board has 32 pieces, not 16.

 

Based on your false logic, I guess the 3...e6 line is the Fantasy Caro-Kann (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6) must be just like the Triangle Defense (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6), huh?  PaLeez!  There is absolutely nothing similar about the play here.  But Black's pawns are the same, going on your faulty logic!

Jeez someone's mad. What i mean by the French having similar positional concepts to the QGD is, for example IQPs, bad LSB, and it can often get a similar structure. And you're saying there are pawn storms, which is true sometimes, but it's the opposite of the Kings Indian, where in the French, white is the one playing for checkmate. "Openings are not similar at all just based on black's pawns or white pawns alone." Are you being serious? Because that is what defines the game. As Philidor said, "pawns are the soul of chess".

Also i think the exchange french suits a Kings Indian player perfectly. With all that initiative and all those pawn storms, i'm sure black will checkmate in a few moves.

As you're such an expert on this combination of openings, i'm sure most Kings indian players play the french against 1. e4, so lets look at some of the best Kings Indian experts. Kasparov, Fischer and Tal are all Kings Indian experts, so i'm sure all of them played the french with black every game against 1. e4, right? Oh yeah, they all mostly played the sicilian, and basically never the,oh so similar to the Kings Indian, French.

Guys I think I should give some insight to my own research.... Firstly I quite agree with the fact that Sicilian, e5 or Pirc are the best options against e4 for a KID player. Obviously Vladimir Onischuk and Kukk Sander are one of those few players who plays both KID and Pirc exclusively. While players like Bassem Amin, Praveen Thipsey are KID players who plays e5 against e4. And I don't even want to make a list of players who plays KID and Sicilian. Now the point is I've terrible terrible results against Sicilian. Mainly against Nc3 move...I struggle a lot. So I have to choose between Pirc or e5. Secondly, I have seen KID players to play the French Defence as well. Probably apart from Exchange French, French has some definite appeal to KID players. I can name players like Alexander Grischuk, Ding Liren, Topalov, Igor Kovalenko, Emmanuel Berg who time to time sporadically played French Defence being KID players. (Ding nowadays neither plays KID nor plays the French god knows why). Now I've been a regular KID player and against e4 I've tried all sorts of stuffs. So I think what I should be settled for is a good repertoire of e5 which will be the backbone. Some French Defence and some Pirc. So is that all I should infer from the above discussions ?

 

The Kings Indian is similar to the French in the concept of the Bad Bishop.  Why should it matter which one?  French it is the LSB, Kings Indian it is the DSB.

 

Also, your claim of it being White instead of Black that storms the king only confirms what I said.  I do not base openings on 1 color.  If you know an opening, you can play it from either side.  You may only play the black side by choice, but if you are incapable of playing the other side, YOU DO NOT KNOW THE OPENING!.

 

Therefore, as said before, French White attacks Kingside, Black Queenside, vice versa in Kings Indian.  If you understand one opening, you should understand the other.  Playing Black in the Advance French is like playing White in the Classical Kings Indian.  Playing Black in the Classical Kings Indian is like playing White in the Advance French.  Yes, there are differences, but the concept is the same.

 

And your questioning my statement that Black's Pawns OR White's Pawns do not equate to similarity.  Black's AND White's Pawns COMBINED dictate the position.

 

If all you did was base it on Black's pawns, then I guess by your standards, the 1...d5 variation of the Sokolsky, where ...e6 is played, must be just like the French, huh, because Black's pawns are on e6 and d5.  PaLeez!

 

8 pawns are not the soul of chess.  16 pawns are!

 

The blocked center with the e- and d-file blocked by White and black pawns unable to legally move at all and play is forced on the wings.  That is what makes the French and KID highly similar.

 

White pawns on e3 and b5 and Black pawns on e6 and d5 is NOTHING like White pawns on e5 and d4 with Black pawns on e6 and d5 (Sokolsky the former, French the latter)

 

So yes, PAWNS, not BLACK PAWNS, are the soul of chess!

 

Additional players that played both the French and Kings Indian

 

Wolfgang Uhlmann

Igor Glek

 

Uhlmann favored the Winawer against Nc3, Glek was a McCutchen player, but both were huge French advocates.  They also played the Kings Indian.