Black chooses the opening?

I heard an interesting comment the other day, please forgive me if I get it wrong, however "White gets the first move but Black gets to pick the opening" or something along those lines, and I thought..huh? I'm confused.

As a newbie I just assumed that you learn an opening to play as White and as Black. However, this comment threw me for a loop, what could they mean?

So, I didn't pay it any heed (like any newbie I'm still deep in the TMI phase..too much information) and continued on hoping to one day understand what they meant.

It didn't take long.

I was playing around with a chess computer and tried to play the Ruy Lopez (or so I thought, here's what happened.

So I opened up the game explorer and found that Nf6 is the Alekhine's Defense, and sure enough after exploring the games more I discovered I wasn't handling it very well. Long story short I adjusted my responses to better handle the Alekhine's Defense, I'm still a newbie, but I'm learning.

So here's the question, how does "Opening" training really work when you are sort of at the mercy of what your opponent does next? Or perhaps this was just a bad example, like I said I'm quite new at this.

Thanks, looking forward to getting some insight.

Matt

Yeah, if you play e4 you have to be ready to play more than just the Ruy Lopez. Like Alekhine's Defence. Black could also choose 1...c5 the Sicilian, 1...c6 the Caro Kann, and you can't play the Ruy against either of those, only if Black plays 1...e5. Both sides kind of narrow it down during the first few moves I suppose.

Makes sense, however I guess this is why they say to not concern yourself with the opening as much as a newbie, there's just too much to ingest and understand at one time..Is that right?

There's too much to ingest in a whole life-time. Just pick a couple of openings for each colour and muddle through, best you can. That's all most of us can do, anyway.

Yeah, don't immerse yourself in opening theory, it's the least important stage of the game at any level. I've never studied it in any depth at all and I have some fun, competitive games anyway.

I briefly checked your ratings, and I think you don't really need to worry about openings-as such-at all.

You should know the basic principles:

-try to develop your pieces, they are far more powerful in the middle of the board. Optimally, you shouldn't move a piece twice until all your pieces are developed.

-control the centre. You should make it tough for your opponent to place pieces on central squares (they control far more squares from the middle of the board than some corner) and create nice outposts for your own pieces.

-bishops like long open diagonals, rooks like open files (especially doubled up). Make sure your pieces are actually doing something.

-it's usually best to develop light pieces (knights and bishops first) then the heavy ones (queen, rooks)

So you needn't learn specific moves right now, just know these principles.

Mainly just follow the opening principles and make sure not to drop any pieces or pawns and look out for all your opponents checks, captures, threats before you make your move.

Ex) After 1.e4 Nf6 (Alekhine's Defense), Black is threatening Nxe4 so the correct move would be 2.e5, attacking the knight. You might think its just 1 pawn but...

Ive noticed that many beginners consider 1 pawn 'just a measly pawn'. In reality though, that 'measly' 1 pawn disadvantage can lose you the game especially if you have close to 0 compensation for it like in the case above.

Learn a few opening lines against common moves such as 1...e5, 1...c5 (Sicilian), 1...e6 (French). You will see 1...e5 most of the time but don't get me wrong--Ive seen people rated 800 USCF play the Sicilian at a local chess camp I volunteered at during the Summer. Against the Sicilian, you can pick some anti-Sicilian-not as good as main lines but its easier to learn. Against the French-play the main lines 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 they aren't too hard to learn from what I've heard or you can play 3.e5 Advance variation-easier to learn but, again, not as good. 

I don't agree with the statement "Black chooses the opening" - anyone agree with me?

Chuckle... Yes, as I said, I'm quite new at this, I think I started about 2 months ago. The highlight of my play thus far was getting to 1280 in the tactics trainer!(which I promptly lost :) ) I think I've got roughly the same tactics skill as a 5yr old now! :) WooHoo! 

Anyway this was just one of those nagging questions/comments that didn't make sense to me when I heard it. Thanks for the suggestions though, good stuff to focus on as I've got a long way to go.

Matt

 It's a bit of a dance except who leads can change.

I would agree with the idea that black gets to pick the opening. White chooses the branch, with e4, d4, and of course others, and then black gets to take off with whatever defense they want. No matter how badly white wants to play the open sicilian, they can't unless black obliges them. No matter how much you have studied the white side of the Ruy Lopez and want to play it, you cant if black goes into the Petrov. At least personally, (and this doesnt mean a whole lot of course) I buy that idea that black can have a little more control over how the opening plays out then white does. Especially with e4, but again, thats just one lowly players opinion.

maybe instead of saying black chooses the opening, we should say "your opponent" chooses the opening.  Puchiko gave good advice.  Also, just play with more experienced players and remember some of their moves. 

These are the most popular replies against 1. e4 that you should learn more about:

The best reply against 1. e4: Sicilian Defense

The d pawn is usually exchanged with black's c pawn. In your phase you should just learn a bit about what he could play in the first 4-5 moves because there is SO MUCH theory on the Sicilian Defense (some of the major variations being the Paulsen, Najdorf, the Classical, the Scheveningen and the Dragon) that it's too much for you right now.

e5

Which you probably already know a little about.

e6 (the French)

The french can also be a diversion for the Sicilian (Paulsen Variation), although I've never seen it live myself. (1. e4, e6. 2. d4, c5)

c6 (Caro-Kann)

d5 (Scandinavian Defense)

Quite easy to play on a beginner's level: you exchange the pawns, you develop your Queen's Knight, attacking his queen, etc.

d6 (Pirc Defense)

White usually chooses the opening, if it's well prepared against black's choices. For example You could play e4 and he could play the Sicilian (Dragon Variation), but from there you've got your own share of continuations.

For now I think you should focus on these few things:

1. Learn a little bit about openings, only a few moves, so you will be prepared for traps or possible pawn losses you weren't prepared for.

2. After you know no more theory, just develop your pieces, get them to work together, control the center, make no serious mistakes, get your king to safety by castling, etc, etc.

3. Study simple rules. For example, an endgame where there is only a King against:

- a rook

or

- a queen

or

- a pawn

or

- two bishops

Some endgames are really easy to learn, for example the pawn+king vs. king: you need to get your king to the 6th row in front of your pawn(3rd if you're the Black player) and then advance your pawn, deviate the king and go further. Wikipedia has great help on chess openings, endgames, literally anything. You can also found help here on the forum or using the site's tools.

Just never give up. The world of chess is huge, it has tons of theory, tactics... You'll never know all the openings, all the main lines, all the moves so that you make no mistake, but if you practice every day, you will become a great player! A lot of videos are also available on youtube, I actually watch them myself to practice. Do Opening study, endgame study, tactics study, take a look at grandmasters games so that you see good tactics make great wins, and more importantly analyze your own games, go through your mistakes, learn from them. Emanuel Lasker, a great chess player once said: "When you see a good move, wait - look for a better one!

While searching for the correct quote I found this website that has tips to improve, read them you'll improve!

http://www.dqsoft.com/chesstips.html

Thanks for posting!

I would agree with the idea that black gets to pick the opening. White chooses the branch, with e4, d4, and of course others, and then black gets to take off with whatever defense they want. No matter how badly white wants to play the open sicilian, they can't unless black obliges them. No matter how much you have studied the white side of the Ruy Lopez and want to play it, you cant if black goes into the Petrov. At least personally, (and this doesnt mean a whole lot of course) I buy that idea that black can have a little more control over how the opening plays out then white does. Especially with e4, but again, thats just one lowly players opinion.

But I could say the same type of thing, except for white.  Easy one is no matter how much you study sicilian, you can't play it if white plays 1. d4.  But that's obvious, so to continue with better examples:  You can't play the Ruy Lopez black side if white chooses the italian game - can't play any 2. Nf3 games if white chooses the center game.  You can't play Open Sicilian as black if white chooses Closed Sicilian.  You can't play Petrov if white chooses Vienna.  Like someone else described it earlier, it's a dance and you just have to react to what your opponent does.  I also think black has less control in 1. e4 games than d4.  There are lots of opportunities for white after 1. e4 c5 and after 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6, while after 1. d4, white is almost always going to play 2. c4, letting black choose the direction they are going to go.

Fragilio,

     It's really like picking teams on the playground--each captain takes turns selecting from the remaining available choices.  With each choice, the other side finds itself slightly more limited. 

     Both sides really choose the opening/variation ... together.

My point, Fragilio, is that part of opening prep is to be prepared for whatever your opponent might play.  You have a preference but you know that your opponent does to -- and that he doesn't want to allow you what you really want:  an advantage out of the opening.  So you really have three things to prep for:  (1) what you'll do if he plays one of the really good moves available to him; (2) what you'll do if he plays a lesser move; and (3) which of the moves available to you suits you.  That's why there's some value in the advise offered by some here to focus less on opening theory and more on tactics and technique (it goes a long way toward #1 and #2).  It's also why some teachers like Silman suggest playing through a large number of top-level games rapidly just to get a "feel" for how different openings/variations tend to unfold.  Besides learning to recognize certain patterns, you'll also develop a sense of what's attractive to you and what's a drag.

Does Black choose the opening? I used to think that was the case. The Sicilian is Black's most popular reply, (itching to get you into the Najdorf or the Dragon), but White can frustrate Black with B21: Sicilian Defense: Smith-Morra gambit: 1.e4 c5 2.d4. There are many ways to frustrate Black, taking him out of his comfort zone. You will pick up these lines over time.

One more example. I never liked the Center-Counter as White with Black's early queen move after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. Sure, if you know the move order, then Black's queen will need to move twice after 3.Nc3 to either 3...Qa5 or 3...Qd6 and White will gain a tempo, however, you need to memorize that line or you will get punished in the opening.

The queen is the most powerful piece, worth nine pawns, and unless you are really comfortable with early queen moves by your opponent, then perhaps the Center-Counter with this move order would be more to your liking as it adheres to basic opening principles that do not require memorization and it will frustrate Black's plan of making an aggressive early queen move: 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3. White has developed a piece with tempo, attacking the pawn at d5. Simple and effective.

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I would suggest asking three questions before making any move:

1. Can I check my opponent's king. Can my opponent check my king?

2. Can I capture a pawn or piece for free (en prise)? Can my opponent do the same?

3. Are there any threats I need to take into account before making my move, i.e., forks, pins, and other tactics?

1. Checks 2. Captures 3.Threats - in that order. Checks must be checked first, because they can cause the most problems for either you or your opponent, usually resulting in the loss of material.

You don't need to know The Alekhine Defense to play good chess right now. I don't know the theory behind this defense, nor do I care to know it right now.

After 1.e4 Nf6, 2.Nc3 would have been playable, defending the e4 pawn and developing a piece! I checked this move with Game Explorer and was correct only because I was thinking about basic opening principles, i.e. push center pawns, develop knights, bishops, castle, develop queen to connect rooks - while checking for checks, captures and threats.

By playing 2.Nf3, you left your pawn hanging (en prise). Never do that unless you are playing a gambit, i.e., 1.d4 d5 2.c5 (Queen's Gambit). There are other reasons to hang a pawn (sacrifice), but I suggest learning the basic rules of development before breaking them.

I suggest and highly recommend reading Nimzowietsch's "My System" in stead of working through a bunch of openings and variations of said openings.

I can't tell you if it has a happy ending, seeing as I'm reading it for the first time myself ATM, but I will give him this: The book's instructive and quite amusing to boot. And also... It worked wonders for my game allready. :)

After Nimzo, you'll be better able to understand the big whys and why nots in any opening, you encounter.

Best regards

First and foremost thank you all for replying, at the onset I had no idea this was going to be such a popular topic, it's been fun reading through the responses.

To summarize, lots of good ideas for a newbie like me to review, I also used the game explorer and learned about "proper" or should I say more excepted responses to 1. e4 Nf6, all in all very valuable.

In closing I think the real value was the idea that while white moves first, his or her next move may be determined by black's response. While a very simple idea, it wasn't clear to me on day one, or day 30 for that matter. :)

Thanks!

-f

 I think it depends, maybe for moves 1.e4 and 1.d4 Black chooses the opening, but for instance 1.g4 and Black isn't choosing anything.