Can you avoid the Modern Slav when playing the Catalan?

I've been learning the Catalan over the last few weeks, but I've been having some trouble against these lines:

I'm wondering whether there's an alternate move order that I can use to avoid the Slav altogether. Maybe something with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3?

If there isn't, how are you supposed to handle these lines? Do you have to learn the Slav as well?

Nothing is guaranteed, like the gambit being declined.

1.c4 can get you something totally different alright.

So can 1.Nf3 (probably a KIA if you're looking for Catalan)

But with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6

You can play 3.Nc3 and get

3...dxc4 if 4.e3 dxc4 5.e3 and after b5 can lead to a wild game (wait, wasn't the gambit declined?)

3...e6 Semi-Slav and you can play 4.e4 for a wild game of the Marshall Gambit after 4...dxe4

and if not 4...Nf6 5.e5 

Wait...you're playing the Catalan, worried about Slav theory so considering the English?

you can delay c4 until move 5 or so. it allows some other lines but none of them are as complicated as the dxc4 lines in the slav.

The Catalan is completely ineffective against the Slav.

You have to find something else for the Slav.

The fact that you are asking this tells me that you do not understand what ultimately makes the Catalan a viable opening.

Certain openings rely on certain factors.

The Catalan has a similar dependency to the Colle System and King's Indian Attack.  They all rely on e6 being played by Black with the Bishop BEHIND the pawns!

For instance, with 1.e4, the KIA is most effective against 1...e6 or 1...c5 and 2...e6 (1.e4 e6 2.d3 or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d3).

The Colle System depends on the hemming of the Bishop.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 (3...Bf5 or 3...Bg4 is considered the "Anti-Colle" - against both, there is only 1 good move - 4.c4! - All other moves are bad).

The Catalan is the same way.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 (there is the blocking of the Bishop) 3.g3! d5 4.Bg2 etc.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 (there is the blocking of the Bishop) 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.g3?!, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.g3?! (If White is to play 3.g3 lines against the Chigorin Defense, 2.Nf3 is better than 2.c4), and 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.g3 are all ineffective!

absolutely true about the Catalan, the Catalan relies on having the only "good" light squared bishop in its territory, if black can get their queen bishop outside of their pawns, then black will dominate the position.

I think the easiest way to make the fianchetto work is with 4. Qb3. If Black wants to develop the bishop outside, he has to give up the center with dxc4.

And in your line after Qxc4 b5 better Qb3 so Black needs to spend an extra move on a6 to prepare c5.

You can look at the database, there are lots of high level games, for example Mamedyarov played the line in many games.

If you want to play a catalan structure then what I play is 4. g3. The positions are easier to equalize according to the engine, but it's totally playable and the white player is probably going to know the structure better. When people say the Catalan isn't playable against the slav it isn't really true. It isn't played at gm level much because it's not a good try for an advantage as white, but it's fine and normally ends up with similar themes to the catalan, which is better than playing an opening you're uncomfortable with. It also scores pretty well even at a GM level, probably since Black would be more prepared for a main line. dxc4 at any time basically just transposes into the open catalan, white will develop the kingside and then play Ne5 and a4 in a lot of lines. The Bf4 lines are also normally pleasant for white, since Nh4 ends up getting you the bishop pair or you can often break with e4.

I was just playing 4. g3 but I kept having trouble dealing with the wall of pawns against your Fianchetto so I'm just learning a line in the Slav so I don't have to deal with the struggles of a Fianchetto with pawns on c6 and d5. Main Line Alapin is fine for me

Been a bit since i drilled catalan lines or played it but i think Qc2 there is pre-mature. Finish developing with bg2, and i think we try an recapture that pawn with one of our knights preferably, depending on what their doing. Theres a line were we go nfd2 and h4.

Yeah the early Qc2 may be why you're having trouble, since it seems like the move that's less likely to transpose to Catalan mainlines? g3 Bg2 is closer to the standard Catalan development plan, and dxc4 b5 is still fine for white and ends up being quite similar to the Open lines (you will need to go over a few lines of theory but if you're a catalan player you should be used to that). It also keeps the possibility of Qb3 in some lines. That said, Qc2 is a more common move at master level, so it's still totally fine, it's just g3 is much more in the spirit of the catalan in my opinion.

As many have pointed out, 4.g3 is a rather natural way to develop in the Catalan here (followed by the normal Bg2 and 0-0).

Black playing dxc4 isn't really a concern for White at this point, as that'll make White's eventual "Catalan bishop" on g2 much stronger.

In fact, I'd say that White "wants" Black to play an early dxc4, as it gives White the opportunity to develop (or threaten to develop) a strong classical center.

If Black takes on c4, White can recapture the pawn in many different ways. Often the f3 knight hops to e5 or even d2, to hit c4 while opening the diagonal for the g2 bishop.

Long story short: White can simply fianchetto and castle, and doesn't need to use the queen to guard the c4 pawn early on. (White can, but it's not required.)

I have been playing the Catalan and related systems for white for several years, but it's essential to recognize that not all move orders will allow you to play the Catalan if your opponent has other ideas. Have something in mind to play if your opponent doesn't do as you wish. If you are trying for a Catalan, you are likely to encounter opponents who offer instead the Queen's Gambit accepted, Marshal Defense, Benoni, Budapest, Albin Countergambit, King's Indian,  Queen's Indian, Grunfeld, Bogo-Indian, etc. Personally, if I'm comfortable with the Catalan, then I think the g3 lines of several of these make sense, but not in every case. Just have a rough plan ready for the options you'll see the most frequently. Sooner or later, someone is going to surprise you. And have something ready for the supposedly bad openings, like the Marshal's (1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6), since you will see it a lot from strong amateur players who may not be great on opening theory but are solid middle and endgame players.

As for the specific question of what to do against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6, I recommend playing 3. Nf3. In many cases the game will continue with 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 e6, and you are in a Catalan.  Or it might continue with 3. Nf3 e6 4. g3 Nf6 for the same position. But you simply can't count on black playing by your opening book, and many other options are available to them. An early Bf4 ahead of e6 is common, as are positions (the Triangle) in which Nf6 is delayed or avoided. It's likely you will want to have a different option in hand than a standard Catalan strategy in this case. Also be sure to know the different flavors of the Catalan itself, as the game is very different depending on whether you see an Open Catalan with an early dxc4, a Closed Catalan with c6 (the most likely variation arising from a Slav move order), or a Catalan with an early c5, which can end up being a Catalan or transposing to an English, Tarrasch or Benoni, among others.  Keep in mind that knowing the name of the opening is less important than identifying a good strategy for a given position. 

Don't forget Stonewall Dutch & Tarrasch

Might I suggest playing the Boor against the slav. It has helped me win many many games

You have premium so you will find an entire video library on this opening here on chess.com.

Enjoy!

You can't avoid the slav. Everyone on this site plays it! With 1. Nf3, one idea is 1... d5 2. c4 c6 3. b3 with interesting games.

I think the point (and maybe the bigger misunderstanding) is that you don't need to avoid the Slav at all. You can play whatever you choose. And if you want to remain in the Catalan "spirit" with the setup, then that's ok. You may end up not choosing the setup in certain situations.

You might remain in Slav with early c6, but you don't have to learn all Slav theory out there. Surely there's not a need to abandon it. Look at the lines you'll face and worry about the rare stuff later.

Well said.

That's a bit of an over-generalization. I literally have been playing competitive amateur chess for 30 years and have never intentionally played the Slav for black. I did discover that move order tricks in the QGD could transition into Slav territory, and have adjusted to avoid it -- not because the Slav is bad, but because it's not my preferred answer to d4. And I'm pretty sure that 1. e4 players, among others, can consistently avoid the Slav for white as well. As I do often play 1. d4. sure, I expect to encounter the Slav fairly often, and I have great respect for it. But you can avoid it and not everyone on this site plays it.

Agreed. I suspect the original poster is trying to figure out how to avoid certain lines that are challenging if you play g3 early after black has played c6. For instance, you do need to adapt to early Bf5 lines and delayed king's knight development lines by black. So you adjust to what your opponent is doing. But you are free to stick with your system. Personally, as someone who does play Catalan-type systems frequently for white, (Catalan, KID-fianchetto, Neo-Grunfeld), the Slav is one of those cases where I opt not to stick with g3 against a particular defense or at least not against particular variations of the defense. For instance, I don't try to play g3 systems against the QGA or the Dutch in most move orders, even though there are g3 options even there.