caro > french

 Hmmmm.... in one of the Korchnoi/Karpov matches Korchnoi played the french in every game that Karpov played 1 e4 and every game was a draw ! You dont get higher level than that ! Also, 50% with black at that level is a victory for black . I dont think the same lofty result has been recorded for caro kanns at that level, has it ?  I believe there were 6 or 7 frenchs in that match and Viktor the terrible didnt lose even one.

As for me I don't like French because white has to many different plans. In Caro Black has more in his hands.

I think it is short-sighted to make any definite judgement of which is "better", French or Caro-Kann. Too much depends on the nature of the player and - of course - the opposition. Both are solid defense constructions, based of course on different principles.

Exactly, yet they still come back to the superior bishop development... yes that's one of the advantages, there are also disadvantages in black's setup...

Same for the french, just different imbalances.

With the french, (against strong play), you sometimes have to be very patient, especially in those main lines where white plays e5 and f4, and also guarding d4 with c3. Black often needs to keep improving his position, using the central pressure as a means of keeping white from doing too much on the kingside, and open things up just at the right moment (or maybe try to block things up further with ...f5, all depending on if exf6 is good for white). Both sides have much trouble achieving their goals, so it's quite a long, slow, positional battle. The space may cramp black, but white's center being under pressure limits his options as well, just differently, and he always has to keep an eye on it unlike black, whose center is always solid. It's likely a dynamic equality.

Oh, and atahan, your ONLY argument for the caro being more fighting than the french is that white can play the exchange french. I really wouldn't be too concerned with a fully equal, free position as black so early on. All black needs to do to create some imbalance is to try to place his pieces in strategically different spots than white (a common setup being bishops on g4 and d6, knight on e7 to avoid pin, giving black active bishops), and/or castle on the opposite side of the board.

I think Elubas' analysis is (in words, no positions!) one of the best I've seen on this issue (which comes back over and over again).

If I might add just one thing (in words): I think the French requires perhaps a little more from the black player than the Caro; at least a little more patience - wait, wait, defend, defend, defend - ATTACK (if you're alive)!

Thanks phobetrix! And yes that is a nice addition. It really takes a certain player to both enjoy and play the french well.

In fact I think I know why Kasparov probably didn't like the french. I bet he could play it effectively because he's so good, but he's definitley not the player to just keep waiting and waiting and defending (and maybe the winawer is too unsound for him!) , and just grinding the opponent down in general, all this with a bad bishop! He figures he's very good in sharp positions with counterplay so he simply prefers the sicilian, but that's him. Instead I like to close the game, keep the pieces on the board, and grind my opponent endlessly. It may take awhile, but I think the better player will have excellent winning chances because it comes down to who had the better plan, as with all the pieces on there is a lot of potential for either player, even though progress can in general only be made slowly.

And yet black's position is unbelievably solid and nobody has shown how to crack it convincingly. At the same time there are many lines where black can play very dynamically, like in the winawer. I really like how black can practically force a closed game if that's what he wants; the most open white can force the game is with the exchange variation which is very comfortable for black, and it's not even that open.

I never said that the caro-kann is MORE fighting then the french. I said they are equal. Caro-kann is not really more drawish then the french. In fact it is more up to black if he wants to enter drawish lines or not in the mainline caro-kann, ie choosing beween long or short castling. The statistics are misleading in this case because there is more opposite side castling in the mainline then there used to be.

So we can agree on that these two openings are pretty equal statistically and it is more a thing of taste which you choose. Both openings have different problems to solve. In the french the bishop. In the caro the loss of that tempo c7-c6-c5 and therefore a more passive position in the beginning. Both are though aiming for the same thing. Solve their problem in the opening and then counter attack and stand better later in the game.

The reason why the french is so popular is because alot of e4 club players hate the french because there is no way to force a typical e4 open game without giving in to serious consessions. French positions are very different compared to all other e4 openings.

You give up space in the caro-kann aswell and some of the advance lines are very sharp.