The French Defense

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Caesar49bc

 

Looks more like a trap in the French Defense, rather than a main line. The line isn't listed in Chessbase Encyclopedia of Chess Openings 2011 as an opening. I think most players over 1500 would consider 3 .. Nf6 an inferior move. The fact that it does occasionally see high level play means it's playable, but relegated as a dubious line with potential.

The Chessbase Mega 2012 does have a bunch of games with that particular sequence of moves, but no high level player is going to push their pawn from c5 to c4 and fall for an obvious trap. The highest elo listed for black pushes a pawn from f7 to f6 in response. The bishop sacrifice falls apart after black pushes on move 10, the pawn from f7 to f6, because the bishop sacrifice only works if the king has no escape squares.  I had a recent game that was similar, although actually moved the pawn a couple moves later, because I knew I had time to get my king an escape square.

 

 

Fromper

Caesar, there's nothing dubious about 3. ... Nf6. It's a perfectly respectable move leading to either the Classical (4. Bg5) or Steinitz (4. e5) variations of the French. I play it all the time as black.

The Steinitz is the far more common response by white, by a very large margin. Very few people actually play 4. Bg5 against me. I wish they would, so I could play the MacCutcheon (4. Bg5 Bb4) variation more often. I like it, as it gives sharp play along the lines of the Winawer, but white players are much less likely to know what they're doing against it.

The mistake in the variation given in the starting post has more to do with black castling. In the French, black should rarely castle, because white has a space advantage on the king side, and the potential bishop sac if he can get his bishop to d3. In many lines, the closed pawn center makes it safe for the black king to just stay in the center. There are even lines where black castles queen side, despite having played the c5 pawn break.

poucin
Caesar49bc a écrit :

 

Looks more like a trap in the French Defense, rather than a main line. The line isn't listed in Chessbase Encyclopedia of Chess Openings 2011 as an opening. I think most players over 1500 would consider 3 .. Nf6 an inferior move. The fact that it does occasionally see high level play means it's playable, but relegated as a dubious line with potential.

 

U shouldn't telling such things when u don't know what u are talking about.
3...Nf6 is still a main line, and thevariation given here is a big line, though 9.Qd2 to prepare 0-0-0 or dxc5 first are more to the point (but Bd3 is an alternative).
I don't know how u are searching, and how u can think 3..Nf6 is inferior but come on...
There is no established truth about which is best : 3...Bb4, Nf6, dxe4. Even 3...Nc6 and maybe 3...h6 (3...a6) are playable.
Caesar49bc

Ok

Ravenclaw21

 

Ravenclaw21

this is what i play against the french

Fromper

I don't play Qb6 that early as black in the French Advance. Wait and see whether the queen will be better placed on b6 or c7 before moving it. That's why I prefer 5. ... Bd7. 

ThrillerFan
Caesar49bc wrote:

 

Looks more like a trap in the French Defense, rather than a main line. The line isn't listed in Chessbase Encyclopedia of Chess Openings 2011 as an opening. I think most players over 1500 would consider 3 .. Nf6 an inferior move. The fact that it does occasionally see high level play means it's playable, but relegated as a dubious line with potential.

The Chessbase Mega 2012 does have a bunch of games with that particular sequence of moves, but no high level player is going to push their pawn from c5 to c4 and fall for an obvious trap. The highest elo listed for black pushes a pawn from f7 to f6 in response. The bishop sacrifice falls apart after black pushes on move 10, the pawn from f7 to f6, because the bishop sacrifice only works if the king has no escape squares.  I had a recent game that was similar, although actually moved the pawn a couple moves later, because I knew I had time to get my king an escape square.

 

 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with 3...Nf6.

The line played is a "normal" line, but 7...a6 is thought to be slightly stronger these days.

The "trap" is not ...c4, but rather 9...cxd4 is the move that those unfamiliar will fall into, allowing the Greek Gift Sacrrifice.  All Black has to do here is play 9...f6 or 9...f5 instead.

ThrillerFan
Fromper wrote:

I don't play Qb6 that early as black in the French Advance. Wait and see whether the queen will be better placed on b6 or c7 before moving it. That's why I prefer 5. ... Bd7. 

 

5...Bd7?!, once popular in the 90s, is now dubious.  Better are 5...Qb6, 5...Nge7, or 5...Nh6, and here's why.

First off, the Bishop does absolutely nothing to pressure d4, which gives White the one extra move he needs to consolidate with advantage.

After 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 (those that are going to play 5...Qb6, I advise them to play 4...Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 as this avoids the 5.Be3 sideline, those that intend to play 5...Nge7 or 5...Nh6 have to play 4...Nc6) 5.Nf3 and now:

 

A) 5...Qb6! 6.a3 and you have a ton of theory.  Best is 6...Nh6 if you want an active game and 6...c4 if you want a positional grind.  Other moves, including 6...Bd7, are inferior.

 

The reason White plays 6.a3 here is that 6.Be2 is too slow.  Now, if White tries to castle and consolidate, he's in trouble.  After 6...cxd4 7.cxd4 Nh6, White has no time for 8.O-O as 8...Nf5 and White has no good way to avoid losing a pawn.

Therefore, White plays 8.Nc3 here, and after 8...Nf5 9.Na4, hitting the Queen, Black is slightly better after 9...Qa5+! 10.Bd2 Bb4 11.Bc3 b5! 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Nxc3 b4 14.axb4 Qxb4 and Black is more actively with a tiny edge.  Black should not be getting advantages in any opening.

 

Note that the early Knight moves on move 5 can transpose to the same thing.  The critical point is you are going after d4 hard!

 

HOWEVER....

After 5...Bd7?!, White can play 6.Be2! with advantage now.  Black has 2 options and neither are good. 

The first is 6...f6.  White can ignore it and play 7.O-O! fxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.fxe5 Qc7 and now 10.f4 is good for White, but even better is 10.c4! and the center is breaking before Black is ready, and taking the pawn on e5 is a death wish with only the Queen developed.

 

If Black now goes for d4, it's too late!  6...Qb6 (or 6...Nh6 or 6...Nge7, same deal - order doesn't matter much - damage is done!) 7.O-O! cxd4 8.cxd4 Nge7 (or 8...Nh6) 9.Nc3 Nf5 and now 10.Na4! is a big advantage for White as there is no check.  White simply gains time, space, and the advantage!

poucin

What Thrillerfan said is true except for 5...Bd7.

Assessing it as dubious, really?

The big line being :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bd7 6. Be2 Nge7 when the issues given by Thrillerfan are not troublesome here, because we didn't play Qb6, avoiding Nc3-Na4.

Black will follow with cxd4-Nf5 or sometimes only Ng6 to prepare castle and f6 at some point.

Theory considers black is ok and top players still play it...

Fromper
poucin wrote:

What Thrillerfan said is true except for 5...Bd7.

Assessing it as dubious, really?

The big line being :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bd7 6. Be2 Nge7 when the issues given by Thrillerfan are not troublesome here, because we didn't play Qb6, avoiding Nc3-Na4.

Black will follow with cxd4-Nf5 or sometimes only Ng6 to prepare castle and f6 at some point.

Theory considers black is ok and top players still play it...

Exactly. That's what I play, based on the recommendation in the "Killer French" DVD by GM Simon Williams. 

Here's the example game he gives for that line:

I figure if GMs like Shirov and Williams play it, then it's good enough for me.

ThrillerFan

Congrats, once again you use examples from ancient times.  Many things changed theoretically in the French advance in 2007.  Many assessments were turned upside down.  So much so that I even played the Taimanov Sicilian for a few years as my primary weapon of choice against 1.e4.

 

Almost all of those re-assessments were in White's favor.  One of those is that 7.O-O was found to be better than 7.Na3, and a post-2007 example would be Grischuk - Ivanchuk, World Cup 2011.  I am sure you can guess who won!

ThrillerFan

There were a good 20 or 30 assessment changes then.  Most, thought not all, swinging in White's direction.  Just to name a few:

 

5...Qb6 6.Be2 went from = to =/+, mainly due to 11...b5, which was played prior, but mis-evaluated

5.Qb6 6.a3 a5 went to being bad for Black after ideas were found in the 7.Bd3 line.

Milner-Barry with 10...Qxe5 and 11...Qb8 went from = to better for White, BUT, 10...a6 went from = to better for Black!  Hence why the MBG is considered highly dubious and was not back in the 90s.

 

There are many others as well.  The Advance Variation is best studied with games from 2008 to 2020, unlike other lines, even in the French, where older games are viable sources for theory.

 

By the way, these were human assessments by various GMs (e.g. Sveshnikov, the king of 3.e5, Moskalenko, a modern French advocate, etc), not artificial intelligence, which is not good at assessing openings.  For example, it gives +1 in the Kings Indian Mar Del Plata after move 9 on some machines.  I think we all know that is wrong, and it corrects itself later.

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

What Thrillerfan said is true except for 5...Bd7.

Assessing it as dubious, really?

The big line being :

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Bd7 6. Be2 Nge7 when the issues given by Thrillerfan are not troublesome here, because we didn't play Qb6, avoiding Nc3-Na4.

Black will follow with cxd4-Nf5 or sometimes only Ng6 to prepare castle and f6 at some point.

Theory considers black is ok and top players still play it...

 

Your proposed move order does not help Black!

After 7.O-O!, 7...Ng6 is Grischuk - Ivanchuk where White is basically winning after 20.c4 instead of the move played.  The game featured blunders for both sides thereafter as both were out of time.

 

7...Nf5 8.dxc5!

 

7...cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 9.Nc3 and now what?  No ...Qb6 means no pressure on White's center and 9...Qb6 10.Na4! and you are back to the problem already indicated!

poucin

I think the way is 7...Nf5, like this game where black was better and took a draw in a better position :

9...Nh4 holds for black and I don't see what is the problem.

Ulybin played several times this position with good results as black, he trusts it and u know what, i trust more Ulybin than Thrillerfan...

White can improve but black is not so worse.

 

poucin

Other ways :

Black just abandoned Qb6 and played for f6 with reasonable chances.

Another interesting way is the move a6, preparing the idea Qb6-Na4-Qa7.

For example :

If black knows what he/she is doing, Bd7 is fine.