Does anyone succeed with the Damiano Defence?

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Mal_Smith

"This is not the sort of opening that anyone would want named after themselves." The Mammoth Book of Chess by Graham Burgess.

This line is quite difficult to remember, and I'm not sure my dilettante brain is up to it. But I've done reasonably well by pursuing normal development, while vaguely intending to attack the exposed black K. At my lowly level Black often plays 4..g6 to break the check, then my Q has the joy of checking again & eating the rook. Then that really should be game over.

 

ruben72d

that line should not be remembered since it's just as easy to find it intuitively over the board. The only real option for black is 3...Qe7 but this moves just gives white more time for developement and black is clearly worse with no compensation.

GreenCastleBlock

That mate is not forced:



Mal_Smith

When you say "that mate is not forced" note that you are disagreeing with FIDE Master Graham Burgess, not me Embarassed. Are you sure?

Mal_Smith
ruben72d wrote:

that line should not be remembered since it's just as easy to find it intuitively over the board.

Maybe for you...

GreenCastleBlock
BackTo1200OrBust wrote:

When you say "that mate is not forced" note that you are disagreeing with FIDE Master Graham Burgess, not me . Are you sure?

All I know is, you gave as your main line a sequence where Black allows a forced checkmate starting with Qf5+.  I thought that was a little dishonest and offered a line where Black does not allow this mate but instead plays the superior 9...Bd6.  I'm not advocating this line for Black, but it is a little more complicated than the author(s) you have read are making it seem.

Mal_Smith
GreenCastleBlock wrote:
BackTo1200OrBust wrote:

When you say "that mate is not forced" note that you are disagreeing with FIDE Master Graham Burgess, not me . Are you sure?

All I know is, you gave as your main line a sequence where Black allows a forced checkmate starting with Qf5+.  I thought that was a little dishonest and offered a line where Black does not allow this mate but instead plays the superior 9...Bd6.  I'm not advocating this line for Black, but it is a little more complicated than the author(s) you have read are making it seem.

Looking again at Burgess' book he does consider several other lines, including Bd6. So put the blame on me for simplifying things... Is catastrophic loss of material better than a quick checkmate? At least the latter is over quickly! Then again, good point about the open lines. Do any top players play this defence with success against other top players?

GreenCastleBlock
BackTo1200OrBust wrote:
GreenCastleBlock wrote:
BackTo1200OrBust wrote:

When you say "that mate is not forced" note that you are disagreeing with FIDE Master Graham Burgess, not me . Are you sure?

All I know is, you gave as your main line a sequence where Black allows a forced checkmate starting with Qf5+.  I thought that was a little dishonest and offered a line where Black does not allow this mate but instead plays the superior 9...Bd6.  I'm not advocating this line for Black, but it is a little more complicated than the author(s) you have read are making it seem.

Looking again at Burgess' book he does consider several other lines, including Bd6. So put the blame on me for simplifying things... Is catastrophic loss of material better than a quick checkmate? At least the latter is over quickly! Then again, good point about the open lines. Do any top players play this defence with success against other top players?

No, not at all.

Dodger111

Damiano condemned the opening, said it was bad,  sad it became named for him.

Mal_Smith
Dodger111 wrote:

Damiano condemned the opening, said it was bad,  sad it became named for him.

Then why do I see it played quite often? Is it just beginners experimenting with a variation on d3?

Spectator94

This defence is not a guaranteed loss:



 

Here's a game with this opening: Fischer playing white in a simul and he did not win
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255180

 

Dodger111
BackTo1200OrBust wrote:
Dodger111 wrote:

Damiano condemned the opening, said it was bad,  sad it became named for him.

Then why do I see it played quite often? Is it just beginners experimenting with a variation on d3?

Yeah,only n00bs play it.

Sred

Serotonine, after 6.Nf4 Black is two pawns down without any compensation. Not a guaranteed loss, but almost.

GreenCastleBlock

White attacked the e5 pawn so Black defends it, the best way to defend a pawn is with another pawn, but ...d6 shuts in Black's bishop.  Therefore ...f6 must be best.  The pawn on f6 limits BOTH of the Nf3's forward squares (e5,g5).  It's positionally well motivated.  The problem is that there are other factors in chess: the move ignores development and weakens Black's Kingside, two things Black can't afford to do in the Open Game.

If you were to take the Qd1 and Qd8 off the board and start a game of chess, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 would be playable.

Spectator94
Sred wrote:

Serotonine, after 6.Nf4 Black is two pawns down without any compensation. Not a guaranteed loss, but almost.

Edited that for you, I dunno why I screwed up the variations.

Sqod

McGregor drew as Black with Damiano's Defense against Fischer in 1964...

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1255180

...so in master hands it's possible to draw with it, though it wouldn't be anyone's weapon of choice.

lenslens1

@serotonine, sqod: thanks for posting that Fischer game - I remember that game because his opponent was a strong player pretending to be a patzer. The early opening with d5 is the best line for black, and Fischer missed the best line in the late opening (13. Re1+ Nge7 14. Be6, keeping black's king in the center) that would have won for him. I've been meaning to revisit this game for a while.

Ziryab

Someone who reads Spanish should consult Ruy Lopez's text. He's the one who introduced the term, Damiano's Gambit. Calling it Damiano's Defense came later through bad translation or poor memory.

I suspect that Lopez was referring to 3.Nxe5 as the gambit, not 2...f6.

Hence, properly understood, it should honor Pedro Damiano.

See my http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2013/06/damianos-gambit.html

 

Sqod
lenslens1 wrote:

The early opening with d5 is the best line for black, and Fischer missed the best line in the late opening (13. Re1+ Nge7 14. Be6, keeping black's king in the center) that would have won for him. I've been meaning to revisit this game for a while.

Thanks for the information: I never heard that Fischer missed a win there, though it would make sense. Now I want to go over that game, too.

Spaceface23