Dutch versus London

My favourite defence these days is the Leningrad Dutch. Quite often I come up against London System players who reply with 2.Bf4. Of course this doesn't stop me deploying my Leningrad formation, and in fact both of us are able to play our standard moves, like so:

What is the best plan here? I have a feeling Black ought to be better, because I don't think the White bishops are that well placed and White is not putting pressure on the centre or queenside. In fact, it often happens that both sides play for a kingside attack simultaneously, instead of the more orthodox pattern of Black attacking kingside while White attacks queenside.

thanks

I've found another thread on exactly the same issue: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/dutch-vs-the-london-system. I don't find it a lot of help, especially against the problems I find on the weak a2-g8 diagonal. But a discussion I found elsewhere on the internet suggested that Black could try either 1.d4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 d6 4.e3 e6 followed by Be7, 0-0, Nc6, Qe8 and ...e5 (a Classical approach) or 3..e6 4.e3 b6 followed by ...Bb7 and ...Ne4. Both of these look more promising to me than automatically heading for my Leningrad setup. I think Black has to have a pawn on e6 in the early stages, and save the e5 push for later.

GM Simon Williams (aka "GingerGM") playing Dutch Defense against London System....

The game actually starts around minute 5:00 in the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi8_HWaqtk8

Williams is a Dutch Defense expert, having produced several books (e.g., "The Killer Dutch") and DVDs, and many YouTube videos (GingerGM channel) on the opening.....he's also excellent (and entertaining) at explaining things.....

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=gingergm+dutch

Thanks, @RussBell, that's exactly what I was looking for - I've learned a lot from that.

Well, I think the Dutch is a very solid defense against the London, and other systems like it, like Colle and Stonewall attack, as it makes the kingside impenetrable to their sacrifices. Id say just strike the center immediately.

Thanks @RussBell - everything I was looking for explained.

The setup I would like to get vs Bf4 and d4 would be e6, d6, nc6, qe7, nf6, f5, and maybe e5 later if allowed. My only problem is if I insist on the Leningrad against everything else and only play this way against the london, I have to make white commit before I do, but then I have f5 nf6, maybe d6 before I have to commit to the leningrad move g6, and white has d4, nf3, h3, c4 even, so I lose the tempo dance. I think most london repertoire books give c4 lines and not the normal triangle formation vs the dutch.

nc3 too, sorry, lost count.

To the op... I prefer black. As someone who plays the reversed Leningrad with the birds opening, I’m just more familiar.

now, If you asked who’s better objectively... I think black is equal, since he’s not really being challenged by white.

In my Amateurs Mind, the position is equal. In the age of Engines, one is inferior. 

I play both the dutch and the london regularly and I have come to this conclusion:

London

The only possible conclusion, good work

A good conclusion.

White is playing the London in a weird, defensive way, which makes me think they haven't actually studied it.

c3 makes no sense to me, at this point in the game. c4 would be more normal. (Or even Bc4.)

And Bd3 after Black has played ...d6 is just asking for trouble (or at least, asking for headaches).

Black should develop toward an ...e5 push (threatening a pawn fork on e4), for sure!

And, given the way White is playing, Black can probably start expanding in the center, later in the game, as White seems afraid to do the same.

(P.S. I think White players who treat the London in this way would be better served by playing the Colle system.)