French Defense and Transpositions

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KamikazeJohnson

I'm a long-time French Defense player, to the point that I have put essentially no study into playing any other Black opening.  Something I often do as Black is to play 1...e6 in response to 1. d4, which allows a pretty straightforward transposition into French if White follows with 2. e4 (the whole idea behind my first move), or QGD if White continues with 2. c4.

What other openings transpositions are likely to arise from 1. d4 e6?  Are there any problematic followups by White, or is 1. d4 e6 perfectly solid for Black?

Thanks!

ThrillerFan
KamikazeJohnson wrote:

I'm a long-time French Defense player, to the point that I have put essentially no study into playing any other Black opening. Something I often do as Black is to play 1...e6 in response to 1. d4, which allows a pretty straightforward transposition into French if White follows with 2. e4 (the whole idea behind my first move), or QGD if White continues with 2. c4.

What other openings transpositions are likely to arise from 1. d4 e6? Are there any problematic followups by White, or is 1. d4 e6 perfectly solid for Black?

Thanks!

I basically play 2...d5 against 2.e4 or 2.Nc3 and 2...f5 against anything else other than moves that are extremely stupid, like 2.Bg5 I would play 2...Qxg5.

APainterPaints

I don't think there are any problematic lines, but if you like QGD, you might as well play 1...d5 because 1...e6 gives White the choice to go for French or the QGD lines. For example a weak opponent might go for exchange variation of the French which is hard to win with Black.

1...e6 makes more sense of you want to combine Stonewall or Classical Dutch with the French like ThrillerFan here does since it avoids the Hopton attack (2...Bg5) and 2.Nc3 (The Raphael Variation) can be met with 2...d5 which can transpose to Jobava London lines, etc. or French with Nc3.

APainterPaints

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

Chessflyfisher
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

KamikazeJohnson
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

Well, my reason for playing 1...e6 in response to 1. d4 is hoping to transpose into the French. I'm not a Dutch player.

KamikazeJohnson
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

2. c4 is definitely the most common follow-up...a lot of players open with 1. d4 intending to play QGD, so it's not surprising. Luckily QGD is relatively easy to navigate without a ton of study, but I plan to work on it.

ThrillerFan
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

In over the board games where I play 1.d4 e6 as Black, I might get a French once every 50 times. It's not played hoping for a French. I figure I'm getting a Dutch.

However, it avoids the following lines:

1) The Staunton Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.e4 - WIth 1...e6, 2.e4 will result in a French Defense instead

2) The Poison-Spike Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.g4 - With 1...e6, 2.g4 is utter nonsense. Black's better.

3) The 2.Bg5 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 - With 1...e6, this line is completely avoided as the Bishop hangs

4) The 2.Nc3 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 - With 1...e6, I avoid it completely, answering 2.Nc3 with 2...d5 instead of 2...f5, leading to a Jobava Attack or a French, the former being more common.

Black can do the same thing with the Nimzo-Indain. 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6. White can still play the Catalan, 3.Nf3 lines, London System, Torre Attack, etc. The main thing it avoids is the Trompowsky Attack, but you allow the French. That's the tradeoff. If you play the French anyway against 1.e4, then it makes sense to do it.

ThrillerFan
KamikazeJohnson wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

Well, my reason for playing 1...e6 in response to 1. d4 is hoping to transpose into the French. I'm not a Dutch player.

Wishful thinking. Will almost never happen.

The reason to play 1...e6 is to avoid lines like the Trompowsky or Anti-Dutch lines. If you are a QGD player, you might as well play 1...d5.

ratif8

After 1:d4 e6 2.c4 u can also go for the Dutch (2...f5) and the interesting English defence (2...b6)

ratif8

And the Nimzo off course!

APainterPaints
KamikazeJohnson kirjoitti:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

Well, my reason for playing 1...e6 in response to 1. d4 is hoping to transpose into the French. I'm not a Dutch player.

That much I understood, but there are some benefits playing 1...d5 instead of 1...e6. 1...e6 rules out several good systems against the London (and some other openings like the Jobava London) involving 2...c5 (which works against 2.Bf4 and can transpose to an improved exchange Caro-Kann) or 2...Nf6 and ...c5. These systems score slightly better against the London than the early ...e6 setups.

adityasaxena4
ThrillerFan wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

In over the board games where I play 1.d4 e6 as Black, I might get a French once every 50 times. It's not played hoping for a French. I figure I'm getting a Dutch.

However, it avoids the following lines:

1) The Staunton Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.e4 - WIth 1...e6, 2.e4 will result in a French Defense instead

2) The Poison-Spike Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.g4 - With 1...e6, 2.g4 is utter nonsense. Black's better.

3) The 2.Bg5 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 - With 1...e6, this line is completely avoided as the Bishop hangs

4) The 2.Nc3 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 - With 1...e6, I avoid it completely, answering 2.Nc3 with 2...d5 instead of 2...f5, leading to a Jobava Attack or a French, the former being more common.

Black can do the same thing with the Nimzo-Indain. 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6. White can still play the Catalan, 3.Nf3 lines, London System, Torre Attack, etc. The main thing it avoids is the Trompowsky Attack, but you allow the French. That's the tradeoff. If you play the French anyway against 1.e4, then it makes sense to do it.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 I play 2.Bb4+ with 3.Bd2 3.a5 and Bogo transpositions in mind or 3.Nc3 3.Nf6 with a Nimzo-Indian transposition in mind .

1.d4 e6 2.e4 I play 2.c5 with an idea to play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.c4 Nc7 6.Nc3 and either 6.Bb4 or 6.d5 blowing up the center

ThrillerFan
adityasaxena4 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

In over the board games where I play 1.d4 e6 as Black, I might get a French once every 50 times. It's not played hoping for a French. I figure I'm getting a Dutch.

However, it avoids the following lines:

1) The Staunton Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.e4 - WIth 1...e6, 2.e4 will result in a French Defense instead

2) The Poison-Spike Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.g4 - With 1...e6, 2.g4 is utter nonsense. Black's better.

3) The 2.Bg5 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 - With 1...e6, this line is completely avoided as the Bishop hangs

4) The 2.Nc3 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 - With 1...e6, I avoid it completely, answering 2.Nc3 with 2...d5 instead of 2...f5, leading to a Jobava Attack or a French, the former being more common.

Black can do the same thing with the Nimzo-Indain. 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6. White can still play the Catalan, 3.Nf3 lines, London System, Torre Attack, etc. The main thing it avoids is the Trompowsky Attack, but you allow the French. That's the tradeoff. If you play the French anyway against 1.e4, then it makes sense to do it.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 I play 2.Bb4+ with 3.Bd2 3.a5 and Bogo transpositions in mind or 3.Nc3 3.Nf6 with a Nimzo-Indian transposition in mind .

1.d4 e6 2.e4 I play 2.c5 with an idea to play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.c4 Nc7 6.Nc3 and either 6.Bb4 or 6.d5 blowing up the center

1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ is actually a decent opening if that is your cup of tea.

The problem with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 c5 (or 1.e4 e6 2.d4 c5, for that matter) is not when White is compliant with 3.Nf3, but rather, the Franco-Benoni, which will often lead to the Schmid Benoni, which is dubious.

There is a specific reason why people quit playing 1.d4 c5 and instead wait for 2.c4, like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5. It is important that the c4-square is occupied by a White pawn. Yes, in the Modern Benoni, that c4-pawn will eventually take on d5 after a trade by Black, but other committal moves are made. The ultimate issue is 1.d4 e6 2.e4 c5?! 3.d5! exd5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Nc3! Where White will play Nf3, Be2, O-O, and then Nf3-d2-c4 and Bf4, putting extreme pressure on d6.

adityasaxena4
ThrillerFan wrote:
adityasaxena4 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

In over the board games where I play 1.d4 e6 as Black, I might get a French once every 50 times. It's not played hoping for a French. I figure I'm getting a Dutch.

However, it avoids the following lines:

1) The Staunton Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.e4 - WIth 1...e6, 2.e4 will result in a French Defense instead

2) The Poison-Spike Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.g4 - With 1...e6, 2.g4 is utter nonsense. Black's better.

3) The 2.Bg5 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 - With 1...e6, this line is completely avoided as the Bishop hangs

4) The 2.Nc3 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 - With 1...e6, I avoid it completely, answering 2.Nc3 with 2...d5 instead of 2...f5, leading to a Jobava Attack or a French, the former being more common.

Black can do the same thing with the Nimzo-Indain. 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6. White can still play the Catalan, 3.Nf3 lines, London System, Torre Attack, etc. The main thing it avoids is the Trompowsky Attack, but you allow the French. That's the tradeoff. If you play the French anyway against 1.e4, then it makes sense to do it.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 I play 2.Bb4+ with 3.Bd2 3.a5 and Bogo transpositions in mind or 3.Nc3 3.Nf6 with a Nimzo-Indian transposition in mind .

1.d4 e6 2.e4 I play 2.c5 with an idea to play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.c4 Nc7 6.Nc3 and either 6.Bb4 or 6.d5 blowing up the center

1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4+ is actually a decent opening if that is your cup of tea.

The problem with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 c5 (or 1.e4 e6 2.d4 c5, for that matter) is not when White is compliant with 3.Nf3, but rather, the Franco-Benoni, which will often lead to the Schmid Benoni, which is dubious.

There is a specific reason why people quit playing 1.d4 c5 and instead wait for 2.c4, like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5. It is important that the c4-square is occupied by a White pawn. Yes, in the Modern Benoni, that c4-pawn will eventually take on d5 after a trade by Black, but other committal moves are made. The ultimate issue is 1.d4 e6 2.e4 c5?! 3.d5! exd5 4.exd5 Nf6 5.Nc3! Where White will play Nf3, Be2, O-O, and then Nf3-d2-c4 and Bf4, putting extreme pressure on d6.

1.d4 e6 2.e4 c5 3.d5 d6 4.Nf3 e5

adityasaxena4
adityasaxena4 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Chessflyfisher wrote:
APainterPaints wrote:

My point is that if you play the Dutch, 1...e6 limits some White's possibilities but gives him the possibility to play the French, but if you play 1...e6 intending QGD, you give just White more possibilities without limiting any.

During my "French Period" many years ago, I used to play 1...e6 in responce to 1 d4. Guess what? After quite a few games, 2 c4 was mostly played with a scattering of other moves. Never did I experience 2 e4 being played. A lot of my games transposed into Nimzoindian formations with ...Bb4 bing played after Nc3.

In over the board games where I play 1.d4 e6 as Black, I might get a French once every 50 times. It's not played hoping for a French. I figure I'm getting a Dutch.

However, it avoids the following lines:

1) The Staunton Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.e4 - WIth 1...e6, 2.e4 will result in a French Defense instead

2) The Poison-Spike Gambit - 1.d4 f5 2.g4 - With 1...e6, 2.g4 is utter nonsense. Black's better.

3) The 2.Bg5 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 - With 1...e6, this line is completely avoided as the Bishop hangs

4) The 2.Nc3 line - 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3 - With 1...e6, I avoid it completely, answering 2.Nc3 with 2...d5 instead of 2...f5, leading to a Jobava Attack or a French, the former being more common.

Black can do the same thing with the Nimzo-Indain. 1.d4 e6 2.c4 Nf6. White can still play the Catalan, 3.Nf3 lines, London System, Torre Attack, etc. The main thing it avoids is the Trompowsky Attack, but you allow the French. That's the tradeoff. If you play the French anyway against 1.e4, then it makes sense to do it.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 I play 2.Bb4+ with 3.Bd2 3.a5 and Bogo transpositions in mind or 3.Nc3 3.Nf6 with a Nimzo-Indian transposition in mind .

1.d4 e6 2.e4 I play 2.c5 with an idea to play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Nd5 5.c4 Nc7 6.Nc3 and either 6.Bb4 or 6.d5 blowing up the center

Well actually when employing the Nf6-d5-c7 idea there is no 6.Bb4 in a French setup . I mixed it up because I do a similar thing in the Caro-Kann with 1.e4 c6 2.d4 Nf6 with the idea being 3.e5 Nd5 4.c4 Nc7 5.Nc3 e6 6.Nf3 Bb4 7.Bd2 Bxc3 8.Bxc3 d5 9.c5 b6 10.b4 b5 11. a4 Bb7 12.axb5 cxb5 13.Bd3 Nc6 14.O-O f6 15.exf6 Qxf6

adityasaxena4

French I play 6th move d5 , Caro-Kann I play 8th move d5 after Bb4 and e6 have been played

ThrillerFan

While this particular one did not come from 1.d4 e6, it could, and it's a blowout win for Black!

adityasaxena4

This is one irritating transposition trap , I just fell into going into a Paulsen Attack of the Advanced French