French or Karo-Cann

i'd stick with the C.K., personally.

I'm a devoted Caro-Kann player myself. Tried the french, didn't like it.

I used to be an avid French player.  What ends up happening is that White usually wins by absolutely crushing his opponent while Black usually wins by attacking weak points and moving towards a favorable endgame. 

The Caro Kann I've played a little bit.  I'm not sure Black ever reaches pure equality unless White presses way too much.  White usually has an advantage in piece activity and space while Black tries to trade down into an ending.

One of the main problems of the Caro Kann is that it is fairly drawish.  If White wants a draw, he can usually get one.  In the French, Black usually has dynamic chances.  If White wants a draw in the French, he should try the Exchange variation.  However, variations have been shown to give Black winning chances with a queenside castle. 

Both openings are rich in nature and you should probably explore the ideas of both of them.  I would probably go with the French, but the Caro Kann is a good opening as well.

You simply have to see which one works best for you after looking at them both for a while, as it's all a question of style. I love the counterchances black can get out of the french and the closed games but I also have respect for the caro kann, which I play once in a while. Both openings need an understanding of positional themes though, especially the french, as you can get crushed if you miss time your pawn breaks.

I think the ...gxf6 line is a little over aggressive. I think Larsen played it, but even he admitted that it's not very good. To assume that the g file automatically leads to a kingside attack is a little naive, and even if it does white should be able to counter on the queenside if black castles there. I think white should do a fianchetto to block out the file and he will have a little more space, and better pawn structure, which although not so easy to exploit is good for white in the long run. If black goes queenside, the c6 pawn will be a lever to open up files.

killabeez, I didn't know you've moved on from the french defense.  What do you play mostly now?

I learned the Caro-Kann as my first defense against e4, and I got pretty good results with it, but now I usually play the French defense as the positions that arise are ones I enjoy playing a lot more.  To the OP's question, in my experience the CK is a bit drawish and has mostly open positions, while the French is more positional and closed.  Where you feel most comfortable may be the best place to start.

i have played both in the past ... but i tend to play the Caro Kann but it all depends on who i am playing, in terms of strength etc ..... particularly OTB  in local league chess or tournaments etc

KillaBeez wrote: "One of the main problems of the Caro Kann is that it is fairly drawish.  If White wants a draw, he can usually get one."

All openings have a drop of poison in them, and this is one of the Caro-Kann's main strengths. I don't think it is easy/simple for white to get a draw. I would re-phrase it as "it is fairly easy for white to get an equal, simple-looking position out of the opening." But turning this into a half point is not a simple task. I may be the only titled player on chess.com who plays the Caro-Kann exclusively against 1.e4 and my tournament results with it are excellent. I find that against an opponent who is 100-200 points lower rated than myself it is somewhat of a dream opening. I get an equal position out of the opening and then I get to play another 30-40 moves, often in a very positional game. If white is an attacker, there are a ton of ways NOT to attack against the Caro.

Ozzie, what are some of the ways black can get winning chances against lets say the main line caro, but without h4-h5 (to avoid weakening the kingside for the endgame)?

I ask this because the rubinstein of the french, a seemingly similar opening (but instead black will fianchetto his queen's bishop and won't lose tempo with ...c5) is in fact one of the more drawish openings I've played.

I don't play the main line caro, so I don't know if I can answer that. I play the 4... Nd7 line. The easiest or most popular line for white to get a rather sterile, equal position is probably this:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Nf3 Ngf6 6.Nxf6+ Nxf6 7.c3 Bg4 8.Bd3 e6 9.o-o Be7 10.Re1 o-o

Or something to that effect.

But white still has to play the game, is my main point. If you take a 2000 player against a 2200 player, it's not like the game is already over. I might be a bad example because I have experience in the positions, but if you take a 2200 against a 2400, they probably score better than starting from the initial position, but only because they've already played 10 games and aren't losing.

For me playing Class E,D, C players the drawishness of the opening isn't so important.  As black getting into an equal position for the middle and end games will offer enough chances to win and lose.  What I don't like avbout e4/e5 is just the mind numbing amount of variations that can happen with tons of traps, gimmicks, theory etc.  With the French or Caro-Kann things seem more systematic and easier to understand at least some fundamentals.  Against d4 I like the Budapest (or even the Albin) because white can screw up, but if he doesn't the game is still pretty even.  Against d4/Nf3 I probably would play the Slav or Nimzo-Indian where at least the first level basic idea and strategy is pretty easy to understand.  Things like the KID, Pirc, or Gruenfeld get too complex for me. 

I do like to attack, just after getting developed and with a decent plan.  So again bwtween the KC and the French the French sounds like a little better fit.

For the most part I agree (though I'm class B), but I do think that some openings are indeed drawish enough that it's hard to get a win out of it, as simple moves may just lead to many exchanges in the rubinstein french for example if black plays the ...c5 line. The caro also seems to exchange many pieces off in that way, but maybe a key difference is that ...c5 isn't played so early.

Drawishness in general is still mainly controlled by white isn't it?  Black can opt for a sharp line here or a quiet line there but white usually has the say on how sharp the play is.  Sure, if you're black facing e4 and are higher rated or looking for a win then playing e5 probably makes more sense since white has a harder time quieting that position than some other ones.  I feel good if I understand the opening somewhat, if I get some chances to attack/win, I can get to a middle end game without a serious disadvantage as black. 

Being a French and Stonewall player myself, I cast my vote for the French.  I REALLY love to hemm in my Queen's Bishop, what can I say?  I have nothing against the CK and have actually thought about giving it a try.  The French is addictive to me though.  I've won and lost my fair share of games with it, and I keep going back to it.  As far as the Winawer, don't play it if you don't like it.  Nobody forces you to move that B to b4.    When White plays Nc3, just play Nf6 and the Classical or Steinitz variations.  Both have similar ideas.  The Winawer can be a long-term project if you still want to look at it.

Both lead to similar solid pawn structures for black with good endgame chances, but the main difference I see in playing them is that with the Caro-Kann I can get rid of that pesky bishop very early on, so it's not a concern.  I like playing the Caro-Kann, seems easier to jump into and less intimidating than the Sicilian.

Webhead, but the Winawer just appeals to me overall.  Just because I screwed it up once does't mean I can't learn it  .  I suppose I should read about Nf6 too, but since I control that variation it's easier as a hobbyist to pick one and go with it.  What do you play against d4?  Laskers defense?

I like to play both, but preferably the KC because of how solid it is. Not saying that the French isn't but I guess it comes down to what your comfortable with or what you play the most.

Now I have some experience with both openings I would say that the french is more aggressive and about fighting back from the start (though on a positional basis), whereas the caro-kann is more about achieving a very solid setup and luring white into making concessive attacking moves.

Both have their pluses and minuses. But if you're going to play the french I would recommend that you don't play the Winawer but the classical approach (3. ..Nf6), it is somewhat less theory-intensive and IMO offers the same amount of chances.

I have some PDF files of books on the french on my computer, send me a message if you're interested.