Help with that dirty rat!

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Musikamole

I see this often in Blitz games. Any suggestions for a 1.d4 player would be most appreciated. Smile


Henster97

I'm not great at chess but personally I would play e4 to get control of the centre. 

theoreticalboy

What do you normally continue with in d-pawn openings?  I'd probably play c4 & Nc3 next.

ncubbie

2. e4 transposes to the pirc defense

if you don't want to transpose to an e4 opening, you can play Nf3 or c4

Hugh_T_Patterson

Nf3 would be the line to follow, but it all depends on a number of factors. The reason Nf3 is the proven positional line is because it defends the d pawn and attacks a crucial central square.

Musikamole
ncubbie wrote:

2. e4 transposes to the pirc defense

if you don't want to transpose to an e4 opening, you can play Nf3 or c4


Thanks to all for posting. 

I have been playing 2.e4, and then playing natural moves, like Nf3 and Nc3, defending both center pawns. 

I didn't realize I was transposing into a known opening line, The Pirc Defense. I'll do some reading on that opening, as I like the idea of having both diagonals cleared for my bishops.



I could also transpose into The Austrian Attack, a favourite of Bobby Fischer.

Musikamole
Hugh_T_Patterson wrote:

Nf3 would be the line to follow, but it all depends on a number of factors. The reason Nf3 is the proven positional line is because it defends the d pawn and attacks a crucial central square.


I'll also try 2.Nf3.

I also see 1.d4 d6 and 2.e4 e5. It's not the French Defense, (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5) and Game Explorer has no name for it.

The other common line I see is 1.d4 e6. It's called A40: Horwitz Defense. I'm not sure why Black plays it, unless he wants to transpose into The French Defense.

PeskyGnat

As a 1. d4 d6 player, 2. Nf3 is the most annoying variation to face.

Musikamole
PeskyGnat wrote:

As a 1. d4 d6 player, 2. Nf3 is the most annoying variation to face.


You have my complete attention! Smile

1. Why do you like 1...d6?  Both the Slav Defense and the Nimzo Indian Defense are rock solid for Black.

2. You don't find 2.e4 more annoying? White has two center pawns and diagonals open for both bishops.

Deranged

I hate d4 openings, I always play e4 and if they play e5 back then I play king's gambit.

PeskyGnat
Musikamole wrote:
PeskyGnat wrote:

As a 1. d4 d6 player, 2. Nf3 is the most annoying variation to face.


You have my complete attention!

1. Why do you like 1...d6?  Both the Slav Defense and the Nimzo Indian Defense are rock solid for Black.

2. You don't find 2.e4 more annoying? White has two center pawns and diagonals open for both bishops.


1. I like 1..d6 because it allows me to get in my favorite ..e5 push without having commited my kingside pieces yet.  1. Nf3 means I have to wait a bit, likely entering a KID (but avoiding Saemisch/4P), Old Indian, or some other system like 2...Bg4.

2. I'm a Philidor junkie via 1...d6, so no, I don't mind 2.e4, if you think you're opponent might be uncomfortable in a Pirc/Philidor (what do they normally play against 1.e4?), then it might be an option.

Musikamole
PeskyGnat wrote:
Musikamole wrote:
PeskyGnat wrote:

As a 1. d4 d6 player, 2. Nf3 is the most annoying variation to face.


You have my complete attention!

1. Why do you like 1...d6?  Both the Slav Defense and the Nimzo Indian Defense are rock solid for Black.

2. You don't find 2.e4 more annoying? White has two center pawns and diagonals open for both bishops.


1. I like 1..d6 because it allows me to get in my favorite ..e5 push without having commited my kingside pieces yet.  1. Nf3 means I have to wait a bit, likely entering a KID (but avoiding Saemisch/4P), Old Indian, or some other system like 2...Bg4.

2. I'm a Philidor junkie via 1...d6, so no, I don't mind 2.e4, if you think you're opponent might be uncomfortable in a Pirc/Philidor (what do they normally play against 1.e4?), then it might be an option.


"my favorite...e5 push"

An experienced player. I'm just beginning my journey.

---

Eiric_C mentions the Philidor in post 6.

I figured 1...d6 was mostly for the Rat Defense, forgetting about transpositions. I'll study Mr. Philidor. Thank You.

Dragec

Some players play universal response to both e4 and d4 hoping to get into their favourite opening.

So Pirc players play d6 and French players play e6.

If your second move would be e4 than it's Pirc and French.

If you would stay in d4 waters with say c4, d6 guys would probably have to be familiar with KID, and e6 guys with Nimzo/Queens Indian.

 

So forget about Rat and Horwitz and look at the regular defences that occurs after transposition. There are several nice thread in the forums that discuss the universal e6 and d6 replies.

P.S. Philidor is also viable, but I don't think that d6 guys would play e5 as their second move.

PeskyGnat

I also used to play the King's Indian Defense, so 1. d4 d6 was also a way to transpose into it, but avoiding stuff like the Trompovsky..which I found to be annoying.

Musikamole
Dragec wrote:

Some players play universal response to both e4 and d4 hoping to get into their favourite opening.

So Pirc players play d6 and French players play e6.

If your second move would be e4 than it's Pirc and French.

If you would stay in d4 waters with say c4, d6 guys would probably have to be familiar with KID, and e6 guys with Nimzo/Queens Indian.


Universal. I see. This discussion has been most helpful.

I have been playing e2-e4 in response to 1.d4 d6, with the idea of achieving the ideal pawn center, but this takes me into unfamiliar waters. 

Not anymore. I'm going to play 1.d4 d6 2.c4! My d6 friend will just need to buckle up and enjoy the 1.d4 game. Smile

opticRED

Is this really called "The Rat Defense"? Isn't this called "the black lion"?

PeskyGnat
opticnerve wrote:

Is this really called "The Rat Defense"? Isn't this called "the black lion"?


I think the 'black lion' usually refers to a Philidor defense through the Pirc move order, so White has e4,d4,Nc3 against Black's d6,Nf6 and Black plays either ..e5 or Nbd7.  I've also heard of the Lion as being a Philidor Hanham where Black forgoes 0-0 and plays for K-side expansion with ..h6, g5, Ndf8->g6.  Black does not fianchetto.

The 'Rat' seems to be a bit more encompassing and vague, for example, there's the 'English Rat' with 1. d4 d6 2. c4 e5 but also Rats a-la Duncan Suttles, involving ..d6, ..g6, ..Bg7

opticRED

well then, is there a dedicated group for this opening/defense in www.chess.com?

nameno1had

Has anyone found any additional information about Rat, Philidor Lion Defense transposition?