How can you punish a double fianchetto?

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eCarry_zzz
I see this very often, and I’ve heard that double fianchetto is a bad playstyle. But how?
TrickyTrickyKnight

It is not bad at all.  It is actually quite decent and very good in blitz/bullet.  Hikaru employs it quite often.

Uhohspaghettio1

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.   

OP you should take control of the centre and exploit the usual frailties of the fianchetto at the kingside. Because the opponent has gone for a double fianchetto you probably have time to take control and lock at least one of the bishop's squares up in the centre.

Keep in mind though that double fianchettoes are more just very passive and not all that bad, you shouldn't be looking to force things right away. There are even very rare times when it makes sense to play a double fianchetto and it's in opening theory as a top quality opening but that is a huge exception.   

TrickyTrickyKnight
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.   

OP you should take control of the centre and exploit the usual frailties of the fianchetto at the kingside. Because the opponent has gone for a double fianchetto you probably have time to take control and lock at least one of the bishop's squares up in the centre.

Keep in mind though that double fianchettoes are more just very passive and not all that bad, you shouldn't be looking to force things right away. There are even very rare times when it makes sense to play a double fianchetto and it's in opening theory as a top quality opening but that is a huge exception.   

Wrong.  The double fianchetto as white is actually a very decent blitz opening.  Hikaru has played it in serious online tournaments against strong opposition like Magnus Carlsen, MVL etc.  Check it with an engine.  It is quite decent.  As I said in my original response however, it is more suited for fast time controls as there are definitely better openings out there.

Yigor

King's Indian attack and Nimzo-Larsen attack lead quite often to Double Fianchetto. peshka.png

Uhohspaghettio1
TheDoomSlayer992 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.   

OP you should take control of the centre and exploit the usual frailties of the fianchetto at the kingside. Because the opponent has gone for a double fianchetto you probably have time to take control and lock at least one of the bishop's squares up in the centre.

Keep in mind though that double fianchettoes are more just very passive and not all that bad, you shouldn't be looking to force things right away. There are even very rare times when it makes sense to play a double fianchetto and it's in opening theory as a top quality opening but that is a huge exception.   

Wrong.  The double fianchetto as white is actually a very decent blitz opening.  Hikaru has played it in serious online tournaments against strong opposition like Magnus Carlsen, MVL etc.  Check it with an engine.  It is quite decent.  As I said in my original response however, it is more suited for fast time controls as there are definitely better openings out there.

It is not useful as a blitz opening, that makes no sense at all. The only things that could be useful as blitz openings are very sharp ones that you don't have time to work out over the board. That's the only reason why something would be better at blitz than in long. There is no way a double fianchetto can do this as, on the contrary, it's super-passive.  

"check it with an engine" bruh what are you on about? There are a million different ways you could open with a double-fianchetto. What an engine says has absolutely zero relevance here. You think that if an engine says white is only a small bit up that it must be okay? Just listen to people who know what they're talking about please. 

Infinite_Blitz

I play double fianchetto alot in the sicilian.

 

TrickyTrickyKnight
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
TheDoomSlayer992 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.   

OP you should take control of the centre and exploit the usual frailties of the fianchetto at the kingside. Because the opponent has gone for a double fianchetto you probably have time to take control and lock at least one of the bishop's squares up in the centre.

Keep in mind though that double fianchettoes are more just very passive and not all that bad, you shouldn't be looking to force things right away. There are even very rare times when it makes sense to play a double fianchetto and it's in opening theory as a top quality opening but that is a huge exception.   

Wrong.  The double fianchetto as white is actually a very decent blitz opening.  Hikaru has played it in serious online tournaments against strong opposition like Magnus Carlsen, MVL etc.  Check it with an engine.  It is quite decent.  As I said in my original response however, it is more suited for fast time controls as there are definitely better openings out there.

It is not useful as a blitz opening, that makes no sense at all. The only things that could be useful as blitz openings are very sharp ones that you don't have time to work out over the board. That's the only reason why something would be better at blitz than in long. There is no way a double fianchetto can do this as, on the contrary, it's super-passive.  

"check it with an engine" bruh what are you on about? There are a million different ways you could open with a double-fianchetto. What an engine says has absolutely zero relevance here. You think that if an engine says white is only a small bit up that it must be okay? Just listen to people who know what they're talking about please. 

Umm, bro I don't mean to be rude to you, but take a look at my rating.  I am 2300 in blitz and even higher in bullet.  I have played the double fianchetto as white against a variety of different black setups and it is a very decent way for white to play in blitz and even better in bullet.  It can lead to very complex positions.  But yes double fianchettos can occur in a variety of situations, like say when black plays the hippo defense etc. I am specifically talking about when white begins with fianchettos on both sides.

Uhohspaghettio1

Complex positions don't favour one side or the other. 

When an opening is good for short time limits but not so good for long time limits it generally means that side posing difficult questions but if the opponent gets through them all they come out on top. So wild gambits like the BD are an example of this. If black is pushed for time he/she might make a mistake and lose, but under longer time limits has time to play accurately and is just a pawn up. b3 followed by g3 is just pretty silly because it gets white nowhere.  

I had a look at your stats and while you are a very good player your record as white is disastrous - you have almost exactly the same record as black as you have white - you actually even have a better record as black than white. That is really rare even among poor players who blunder every few moves. You apparently give away the opening initiative every time. I had a look through some of your games and you're playing c3 and moves like that in the opening so no wonder. Just because you're a good player doesn't mean logic doesn't apply to you.    

Also, playing without increment is not a very valid way to play chess. I have no idea why people do it. It becomes about a time scramble rather than chess. Play 3 2, it's vastly better and fairer.  

Bullet - are you trolling with this statement? Bullet openings can be justified by the fact that you need less time to move one square with the mouse than two. 3 0 is bad enough. 

llama47
BriqnL1n wrote:
I see this very often, and I’ve heard that double fianchetto is a bad playstyle. But how?

Having a locked center is good way to make the finachettoed bishops look dumb.

A lot depends on the pawns. Some double fianchetto openings are theory, played by GMs. It depends on the move order.

llama47

And yes, hippo-like positions are very complex, both tactically and positionally. Sometimes beginners will play a hippo to feel safe for the first ~10 moves, but in reality it's a very demanding setup... more or less it's something only beginners and GMs play... don't play it thinking it will be easy, and when you're a beginner playing against it, don't think you can punish it in 20 moves or less.

llama47
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.

The hippo was played twice at the world chess championship match level... twice in the same match.

Sure it's a meme opening, but it's not fundamentally bad... but look at the games, they're very complex so despite appearances it's not a good opening for beginners.

And as I said before, there are at least a few double finchetto setups that are theory.

Uhohspaghettio1
llama47 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.

The hippo was played twice at the world chess championship match level... twice in the same match.

Sure it's a meme opening, but it's not fundamentally bad... but look at the games, they're very complex so despite appearances it's not a good opening for beginners.

And as I said before, there are at least a few double finchetto setups that are theory.

Great because that matches what I said exactly - that it is rarely theoretical or good. I know also the english has an entire main opening involving a double fianchetto. However it is rare and just doing it any old way is just going to be trouble.  

DiogenesDue
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:

The first reply is misleading and wrong - Hikaru intentionally plays garbage all the time, grandmasters very rarely play double fianchettoed openings because they're generally weak.   

OP you should take control of the centre and exploit the usual frailties of the fianchetto at the kingside. Because the opponent has gone for a double fianchetto you probably have time to take control and lock at least one of the bishop's squares up in the centre.

Keep in mind though that double fianchettoes are more just very passive and not all that bad, you shouldn't be looking to force things right away. There are even very rare times when it makes sense to play a double fianchetto and it's in opening theory as a top quality opening but that is a huge exception.   

That's okay...players in the 1800s didn't understand hypermodern openings either.

If you are unfamiliar with hypermodern principles, you should heed this man's advice.  After all you wouldn't want to play some hypermodern trash like the King's Indian and be a passive player like Kasparov...

TrickyTrickyKnight

My ratio in BLITZ as white is: 53% wins, 41% losses, and 6% draws.  My ratio in Blitz as Black is 54% wins, 39% losses, 7% draws.  

Overall, I have a win loss draw ratio of 53% wins/40% losses/7% draws.  

Considering I am playing people more or less around my level, I would say that is damn good.  

As white, I win wayyy more than I lose.  As black, I win wayy more than I lose.  Yes, I seem to have equal stats as white and black, but that has to do with my style.  As white, I go for more solid play, rather than really trying to hammer my initiative.  Also, many players seem to play really well as black.  I don't want to brag, but I play very well as black and hence, I have equal stats.   

As for time controls, 3 minutes is the most popular format for strong players.  Strong players don't play much else besides 3 minute and 1 minute.

 

Uhohspaghettio1
TheDoomSlayer992 wrote:

My ratio in BLITZ as white is: 53% wins as white, 41% losses as black, and 6% draws.  My ratio in Blitz as Black is 54% wins, 39% losses, 7% draws.  

Overall, I have a win loss draw ratio of 53% wins/40% losses/7% draws.  

Considering I am playing people more or less around my level, I would say that is damn good.  

As white, I win wayyy more than I lose.  As black, I win wayy more than I lose.  Yes, I seem to have equal stats as white and black, but that has to do with my style.  As white, I go for more solid play, rather than really trying to hammer my initiative.  Also, many players seem to play really well as black.  I don't want to brag, but I play very well as black and hence, I have equal stats.   

As for time controls, 3 minutes is the most popular format for strong players.  Strong players don't play much else besides 3 minute and 1 minute.

I don't know if you're just trying to bait with this, but there is not a single strong chess player in the world who does that. 

 

autobunny
BriqnL1n wrote:
I see this very often, and I’ve heard that double fianchetto is a bad playstyle. But how?

Make it a triple or a quadruple. If you can't beat them, join them. 

Maxime didn't do So well but then things got grave... 

TrickyTrickyKnight
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
TheDoomSlayer992 wrote:

My ratio in BLITZ as white is: 53% wins as white, 41% losses as black, and 6% draws.  My ratio in Blitz as Black is 54% wins, 39% losses, 7% draws.  

Overall, I have a win loss draw ratio of 53% wins/40% losses/7% draws.  

Considering I am playing people more or less around my level, I would say that is damn good.  

As white, I win wayyy more than I lose.  As black, I win wayy more than I lose.  Yes, I seem to have equal stats as white and black, but that has to do with my style.  As white, I go for more solid play, rather than really trying to hammer my initiative.  Also, many players seem to play really well as black.  I don't want to brag, but I play very well as black and hence, I have equal stats.   

As for time controls, 3 minutes is the most popular format for strong players.  Strong players don't play much else besides 3 minute and 1 minute.

I don't know if you're just trying to bait with this, but there is not a single strong chess player in the world who does that. 

 

Are you saying that a strong player can't have my win/loss ratios??? Because there are actually quite a few notable strong players who have had similar experiences.  Petrosian (famous counter attacker) and Jan Timman are excellent examples.  My win/loss ratios show that I win most games I play as white, but I am also just as likely to win as black, which as I wrote means I am just apparently really good as black for some reason.

Or are you just talking about the last thing I said about the time controls??  Regarding the time controls, I am not baiting.  Of course, most strong players play standard long time controls of 90 minutes etc.  What I meant is that strong players on chess.com (online specifically) MOSTLY play Blitz and Bullet (3 min and 1 min in particular).  Offline they play in OTB tournaments typically in long time controls.  I didn't specify in my response so my bad.  But yeah, just check the top games being played in live chess to see what I mean.  You will find almost all games to be either 3 minute or 1 minute.  

Wildekaart

When it comes to fianchettoing I always say I find it passive compared to just placing a bishop in the center. There are a few situations where fianchettoing is better but those situations arise when you already intended on a fianchetto a move or two earlier, and I find that passive too.

blueemu

I got double fianchettoed once. I was in bed for three days!