I want to learn the Ruy Lopez

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dannyhume
Doesn’t it defeat the purpose of “learning” the Ruy Lopez if you prune the branches you will play/study (as many authors seem to suggest) in order to “limit theory”?

Which branches of the Ruy Lopez then are the best to study and play in order to get that long-term “benefit” that its strategical and tactical complexity impart upon the committed student? What books cover these lines?
kindaspongey
dannyhume wrote:
Doesn’t it defeat the purpose of “learning” the Ruy Lopez if you prune the branches you will play/study (as many authors seem to suggest) in order to “limit theory”? ...

Is the "purpose" necessarily a yes-or-no thing or perhaps something that can be achieved to a lesser degree by going for a pruned Lopez? Might a pruned Lopez serve as a stepping stone from which one might eventually progress to a more ambitious Lopez?

bong711

I agree pruning an opening makes it easier for intermediate players. Many aspects of chess like meddle game strategy, tactics and endgame needs time and attention.

kindaspongey
dannyhume wrote:
… Which branches of the Ruy Lopez then are the best to study and play in order to get that long-term “benefit” that its strategical and tactical complexity impart upon the committed student? What books cover these lines?

I am no Lopez expert, but, for decades, the center of Lopez attention was:

A long time went by without me seeing a book that made a serious attempt to prepare a player to go for that with the White pieces, but, recently, there does seem to have been one book, written in that spirit:

Opening Repertoire The Ruy Lopez by Joshua Doknjas

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/8221.pdf

I suggest taking a good look at the sample before making a decision to buy.

SwimmerBill

Thank you all for the discussion. I just ordered Mastering the Spanish  (1993) from ebay at a reasonable price and look forward to reading it.

Muisuitglijder
SwimmerBill schreef:

Thank you all for the discussion. I just ordered Mastering the Spanish  (1993) from ebay at a reasonable price and look forward to reading it.

Excellent choice! thumbup.png

ponz111

Some seem to forget that the player who asked the question is rated approximately 1500. So my answer to the question took that into account. The answer would be different for say an 1800 rated player.

A 1500 rated player needs to study all aspects of chess and thus should not be bogged down on one particular opening no matter how good the opening is.

nighteyes1234
ponz111 wrote:

Some seem to forget that the player who asked the question is rated approximately 1500. So my answer to the question took that into account. The answer would be different for say an 1800 rated player.

A 1500 rated player needs to study all aspects of chess and thus should not be bogged down on one particular opening no matter how good the opening is.

well thats what this player did. Now he doesnt know anything.

Im sure it was fun playing sicilian at 800 rating. Now its the Ruy Lopez. Next please due all work for me on Catalan..when Im 1550.

 

 

Muisuitglijder
ponz111 schreef:

A 1500 rated player needs to study all aspects of chess and thus should not be bogged down on one particular opening no matter how good the opening is.

I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that Mastering the Spanish is one of the best books if one wants to learn and understand the Spanish.

ThrillerFan
ponz111 wrote:

The problem is that if a 1400 rated players spends the time needed to learn the Ruy Lopez what will he do when he opens 1. e4   and his opponents respond  1. ... c5  or 1. .... c6  or 1. .... e6  or 1. ....Nf6

or 1. .... g6  or 1. .... d5    ?? 

 

You have to start somewhere.  You going to not play until you have mastered every opening?

Even I, an expert, have different levels of mastery against each response.  If a 5 signifies a typical Expert level understanding, 10 is master level, and 1 is 1400 level, I would put myself at the following against each response:

 

1...e6 - 10

1...c5 - 6

1...c6 - 6

1...d6 - 5

1...g6 - 4

1...d5 - 4

1...Nf6 - 4

1...e5 - 3

kindaspongey
Spelenderwijs wrote:
ponz111 schreef:

A 1500 rated player needs to study all aspects of chess and thus should not be bogged down on one particular opening no matter how good the opening is.

I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that Mastering the Spanish is one of the best books if one wants to learn and understand the Spanish.

I'm not qualified to assess the merits of the Mastering book, but one often sees it praised, so it seems like a good guess that it is valuable to the right sort of reader. However, as an ~1500 player who has seen it, I can testify that it looks pretty boggy. It does have illustrative games (like this one),

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1328973

and, consequently, I suppose that there is the potential that someone like me could just play through the games and ignore most of the comments, but the book does not give the impression of being intended for that sort of use. A sample:

"26 … Nxg6? would have led Black to defeat after 27 Qxg6+ Kh8 28 Nf5 Qd7 (or 28 … Rg8 29 Re6) 29 Ne6 etc. Possible was 26 … Kh8 because after 27 Bxe8 Qc5! (but not 27 … Nxe8? 28 Rxe5! Bxe5 29 Ng6+ Kg7 30 Nh5+ Kh7 31 Nxe5+ Qe4 32 Qxe4+ and White slips into an endgame a pawn up) Black retains the better chances."

No doubt, there are players who could look at something like that, pause briefly, nod, and think, "of course", but I am not one of them. A reader starts to feel left out, skipping one comment after another.

In addition to the games, the book has pages and pages of "Strategic Ideas" and "Tactical Ideas" with observations like:

"It is clear that the provocative stance taken by White's light-squared bishop with regard to the enemy queenside (Bb5 a6, Ba4 b5, Bb3) is not without danger for the bishop itself. One such danger can crop up at an early stage in the game when the bishop has completed its mission but the white pawn structure on the queenside has not shifted from its starting position. The Bb3 thus has no flight square and this can lead to its demise at the hands of Black's queenside pawns …"

Not so bad, but there is really a lot of that stuff to get through in every chapter. This book is a major project.

One other point to mention: the book was published in 1993, and I would worry about all the stuff that has happened since then.

It is understandable that some books advise players to postpone an attempt to adopt the Ruy Lopez. Nevertheless, I don't think that the Ruy Lopez is necessarily completely out of the question as a subject for some reading. For one thing, as Black, if one goes for 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6, one is likely to have to face 3 Bb5 some of the time. One preparation approach would be to look at the discussion in First Steps 1 e4 e5:

"

… is my suggestion for when you are playing Black against the Ruy Lopez. You can also play 5...b5 and 6...Bc5 against moves such as 5 d3 and 5 Qe2. …" - GM John Emms (2018)

Also, as I have mentioned before, as a White Ruy Lopez player, one can make choices that avoid some of the complications:

"... Note that, if White wishes, he can rule out the Berlin Endgame by [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 Nf6] 4 d3 (or 4 Qe2). Similarly, [1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6] 5 d3 stops the capture on e4 and so prevents the Open Variation. … You should give serious consideration to these avoidance measures … They have been used regularly by Carlsen and other top players and don't give Black an easy life. From a practical point of view, it saves on the amount of theory you have to learn and denies the opponent the chance to play what might be his favourite defence. …" - GM Neil McDonald (2011)

Over time, as one improves, one could take on more and more of the demanding lines.

To a large extent, The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move, First Steps 1 e4 e5, and Starting Out: Ruy Lopez are collections of Ruy Lopez games, explained, I think, for those not ready to tackle something like Mastering the Spanish. Even if one doesn't play the Ruy Lopez at all, there is perhaps benefit to be had from the commomly suggested activity: playing through interesting games with helpful explanations.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627022042/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen153.pdf

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/7790.pdf

https://chesscafe.com/book-reviews/first-steps-1-e4-e5-by-john-emms/

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627024240/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen53.pdf

bong711

Ruy Lopez section on MCO or FCO is sufficient for amateur chess players IMO. Unless you want to buy an opening book for almost every opening.

ponz111

I am not suggesting that a 1400/1500 player not play until he has mastered every opening. I suggest he learn just a little about every opening and learn a few principles of opening play--but to devote just as much attention or more to the many other aspects of chess. 

kindaspongey
bong711 wrote:

Ruy Lopez section on MCO or FCO is sufficient for amateur chess players IMO. ...

"... everyone is different, so what works for one person may likely fail with another ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2002)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627084053/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman19.pdf

"... I feel that the main reasons to buy an opening book are to give a good overview of the opening, and to explain general plans and ideas. ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

Won't get much explanation in MCO or FCO.

"... If the book contains illustrative games, it is worth playing these over first ..." - GM John Nunn (2006)

Won't get many illustrative games either. By The way, It has been more than a decade since the publication of MCO and FCO. Perhaps, the chess world has come to realize something about their utility.

kindaspongey
bong711 wrote:

... Unless you want to buy an opening book for almost every opening.

"Almost every opening"?

"... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

kindaspongey
ponz111 wrote:

... a 1400/1500 player ... I suggest he learn just a little about every opening and learn a few principles of opening play ...

"... for those that want to be as good as they can be, they'll have to work hard.
Play opponents who are better than you … Learn basic endgames. Create a simple opening repertoire (understanding the moves are far more important than memorizing them). Study tactics. And pick up tons of patterns. That’s the drumbeat of success. ..." - IM Jeremy Silman (December 27, 2018) (Emphasis added.)
https://www.chess.com/article/view/little-things-that-help-your-game

kindaspongey

"... everyone is different, so what works for one person may likely fail with another ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2002)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627084053/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman19.pdf

ponz111

Pumped the Ruy Lopez may not be hard for you as you are rated 2000+ but it would be difficult for a 1400/1500 player.

nighteyes1234
ponz111 wrote:

The Ruy Lopez is too complex for someone with your rating.  I suggest a less complex opening and instead of trying to learn the Ruy Lopez--do what is best to increase your over all playing strength.

 

Ive been playing Ruy since I was rated <1000. Just followed the normal plan.

Played simplified moves, and learn how to defeat the garbage I had to.

Now the moves are more complex, and the garbage a lot less easy to spot, but its the same thing.

If you use kindaspongey approach on anything really, you only pretend to play opening...its that simple

lotusinfer

Logical Chess: Move by Move is the best place to start shows some Ruy Lopez games and helps you with other openings