Is the Fischer Sozin Attack Busted?

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MergedZamasu

I'm honestly curious about this because it would seem despite the major success Fischer experienced with it as well as pioneering it, it would seem that now a days, White is almost at a disadvantage. Most computer evaluation give White or Black a small edge, which means the position is literally dead equal, which is bad for white but great for Black. The fact that Black equalizes very quickly is amazing. Statistically speaking (Database, Opening Book, Live Book, etc), White is most likely to lose or draw but not likely to win. If i'm not mistaken it is the fourth-sixth most common reply to Black's a6 najdorf. And ironically enough, the position most often develops into the scheveningen after Black plays e6. What do you think about this Opening? Do you think it is busted as far as having decent chances of winning? What are some of your own experiences with or against this opening? Personally, I think that it is the right strategy for the wrong opening if you know what I mean (Bb3 eyeing the f7 square and putting pressure on it is more of a Ruy Lopez type of situation. It's hard to say if this same strategy belongs in the Sicilian especially when Black can defend very adequately)?

urk
It does seem to be not a particularly strong approach for White and engines have illuminated this.
I don't understand why Fischer was so fixated on it. You would think he would come to appreciate its deficiencies.
penandpaper0089

No it's not refuted. But if Black isn't playing actively enough its very dangerous.

BronsteinPawn

Lol

BronsteinPawn

Mentioning engine evaluation when it comes to chess openings is so cringy. Is your brain made out of silicon?

blueemu

I'm quite fond of the Sozin / Velimirovic (White plays Bc4-b3, Be3, Qe2, 0-0-0 and pushes the g-Pawn to g5). I've had good success with it OTB, including a few spectacular games. White must be prepared to sacrifice material, though.

Sure, an engine could probably refute it... but if you bring your engine into the tournament hall with you, I can win the game even more easily, simply by calling over the tournament director and getting you banned.

BronsteinPawn

Not even engines have busted the mainlines of the Sozin...

urk
This master I know said he never believed in the Sozin, since before there were any engines.

But Fischer said if God played the Sicilian against him he would play Bc4 and have the advantage. Very strange.
BronsteinPawn

Why do all players have to go nuts and put Jesus into the equation? Steinitz said the same.

blueemu
urk wrote:
It does seem to be not a particularly strong approach for White and engines have illuminated this.
I don't understand why Fischer was so fixated on it. You would think he would come to appreciate its deficiencies.

Even stranger was Fischer's fixation on the QGD Ragozin. He didn't even have good results with it against GM opposition, but he stuck to it with a loyalty that should have been reserved for a better opening.

blueemu

One of my old games in that line... I don't have my collected game scores with me, so the order of moves is only approximate:

 

 

I get the impression that Black overlooked something.

prusswan

Most forcing lines in Sicilian end up in a draw..but that's for super GMs. Mortals can see it differently.

toiyabe

Of course it's not busted.  As a previous poster stated, engine evals in the opening are largely worthless, their "knowledge" in the opening comes from us anyways.  If you want to study the fischer-sozin, just make sure you have a response for the early ...Nc5 plan from black.  There are other potential deviations within the opening as well to go into less explored waters ( 7.a3, 7.a4, playing the 0-0/Qf3 plan, plenty of sacrifice opportunities on e6 if black plays imprecisely, etc).  In almost all of the open sicilians you can do early deviations, force black to start thinking, and the game becomes sharp and fun.  Don't look at engine evals in the opening.  

urk
GMs aren't playing it anymore.
They don't have the same faith in it that Bobby did.
blueemu
urk wrote:
GMs aren't playing it anymore.
They don't have the same faith in it that Bobby did.

That might be just fashion, though.

GMs stopped playing the Scotch for decades. Why? Was it busted, or even inferior? Then why is it popular again now? It went out of fashion, and then came back into fashion.

GMs can be as fashion-conscious as school-girls.

LogoCzar
blueemu wrote:
urk wrote:
It does seem to be not a particularly strong approach for White and engines have illuminated this.
I don't understand why Fischer was so fixated on it. You would think he would come to appreciate its deficiencies.

Even stranger was Fischer's fixation on the QGD Ragozin. He didn't even have good results with it against GM opposition, but he stuck to it with a loyalty that should have been reserved for a better opening.

He read the book questions of modern chess theory by Lipnitsky. The book had a lot of information on the Ragozin, this may have influenced his loyalty.

chrisfalter

If you want to understand how an opening will play out in your games, you need to pretty much ignore the database evaluations. There are plenty of lines in the Najdorf evaluated equal in the databases because black just barely hangs on with 17 precise and insanely difficult-to-see moves until suddenly, at move 32, it's a dead draw. The grandmasters have memorized those lines cold. Have you? Have your opponents? If not, there is plenty of vigor and fun in them.  

Rat1960

@blueemu - Your memory is great. Black's 9. and 10. might be reversed. This is another one but going Bd3 rather than Bb3

najdorf96

Indeed. Maybe 10. f5 is more your style than 10. e5, but both are perfectly playable.

najdorf96

Nowadays, the Fischer-Sozin attack is not really in vogue because of engines. But how many games do you play OTB with an engine at your disposal? 

On the other hand, if you're the weaker player vs a strong player, it's not bad to reach equality. The opposition has to be wary because in view of endgame structures. It's way safer than, 6. f4 schemes for example (as you're compromising King safety) whereas you're just mobilizing the bish on an optimal line.