is the London a good opening

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Toad1258
I think it is a good opening. I play it. you can play positionally if you want and attack if you want and it is not hard to learn.
NikkiLikeChikki
The London is a trash opening. Not because it is bad, but because it takes all the beauty of chess and tries to distill it into something you can play the same every time. You are trading your ability to develop your calculation and tactical skills for easy games. I block every person I face who plays it.

Try a hard opening with many variations. You will lose more at the beginning, but you will sharpen your skills and be the better for it.
x-5107229194

#2

Catching a glimpse of your idea of 'beauty of chess' is quite repulsive and disheartening. Analyse your thoughts and work on them, before sharing this monstrosity with fellow beginners who do not know any better

NikkiLikeChikki
It’s a widely held belief. Naroditsky, though not in such harsh language, implores beginners not to play the London for the very same reasons. It stunts your development as a player because it’s designed to not have to think. If you are a beginner, and want to win and think as little as possible, the. The London is for you. If you want to learn chess, choose a hard opening.
Marcyful

#4 Would you say the same about the Italian Game?

EKAFC

London creates boring lazy players. They get so lazy that I can play h5 on move 2 and despite it being a dubious move, I win their bishop. They blunder almost all the time. 

 

They should try to learn a Queen's Gambit where you can face almost anything. I love the Semi-Slav and for some d4 players don't like to play Queen's Gambit especially playing into a Semi-Slav

punter99

yes, it is a good opening.

NikkiLikeChikki
The Italian is played by top players, but beginners always do the same thing—they try for the fork on f2/f7. If your goal in life is to win the rook on the h file, then maybe you should try something more interesting and unbalanced
EKAFC
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The Italian is played by top players, but beginners always do the same thing—they try for the fork on f2/f7. If your goal in life is to win the rook on the h file, then maybe you should try something more interesting and unbalanced

With the Italian, it doesn't really work against almost everything. I play the French and many times, I am able to win their bishop as seen in this pgn

Even if they create an escape for the bishop, the bishop becomes passive as it can't get out fast enough to be effective

NikkiLikeChikki

Here is a nice trap that gets so many London players it hurts. They play d4, you play d6, they play Bf4, you play c6, they close down the pawn chain and you offer g5. If they take it, and a surprisingly large number do, you play the queen to the a file and fork their king and bishop. If they don’t take, well, Leningrad Dutch. When they resign, I block them.

I normally don’t like trappy chess, but for the London I make an exception.

Marcyful
EKAFC wrote:
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The Italian is played by top players, but beginners always do the same thing—they try for the fork on f2/f7. If your goal in life is to win the rook on the h file, then maybe you should try something more interesting and unbalanced

With the Italian, it doesn't really work against almost everything. I play the French and many times, I am able to win their bishop as seen in this pgn


Even if they create an escape for the bishop, the bishop becomes passive as it can't get out fast enough to be effective

I can't see the PGN...

NikkiLikeChikki

1. d4 d6 2. Bf4 c6 3. e3 g5 4. Bxg5 Qa5+ 5. Qd2 Qxg5 ... I was explaining it in case some beginners were watching.

EKAFC
Marcyful wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The Italian is played by top players, but beginners always do the same thing—they try for the fork on f2/f7. If your goal in life is to win the rook on the h file, then maybe you should try something more interesting and unbalanced

With the Italian, it doesn't really work against almost everything. I play the French and many times, I am able to win their bishop as seen in this pgn




Even if they create an escape for the bishop, the bishop becomes passive as it can't get out fast enough to be effective

 

diagram-placeholder.png

 

Let's see if it works now. In case it doesn't work 1.e4 e6 2.Bc4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bb3 a5. Many players will not realize that the bishop can be trapped and play 5.Nf3 a6

Marcyful
EKAFC wrote:
Marcyful wrote:
EKAFC wrote:
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The Italian is played by top players, but beginners always do the same thing—they try for the fork on f2/f7. If your goal in life is to win the rook on the h file, then maybe you should try something more interesting and unbalanced

With the Italian, it doesn't really work against almost everything. I play the French and many times, I am able to win their bishop as seen in this pgn




Even if they create an escape for the bishop, the bishop becomes passive as it can't get out fast enough to be effective

 

 

 

Let's see if it works now. In case it doesn't work 1.e4 e6 2.Bc4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bb3 a5. Many players will not realize that the bishop can be trapped and play 5.Nf3 a6

Yeah, I can see it now. Thanks!

EnderCrowing

The way it was explained to me is that the London isn't exactly an opening, but a whole system, where reactionary moves are replaced by a move progression that never changes regardless of whether black plays symmetrical, Gruenfeld, King or Queen indian, etc. 

I think brand new players should play it as a way to get their feet wet, so to speak. It's simple enough to entice novice players into pursuing more advanced opening theories after mastering something so simple.

Stil1

The London is a fine opening.

Most top players have it as part of their repertoire. Carlsen, for example, enjoys playing it from time to time.

The arguments against it usually address London players who play the opening wrong, or don't fully understand what they're doing with it, and play it by rote instead of actually thinking about their moves.

But that can apply to any opening (system or not).

Honestly, I find that Stonewall players are far more repetitive in their play than London players (see example setup below)

A typical Stonewall setup

 

... yet London players seem to attract more disdain (even though the London is arguably more flexible and dynamic than the Stonewall).

cvjdbkgxc
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
The London is a trash opening. Not because it is bad, but because it takes all the beauty of chess and tries to distill it into something you can play the same every time. You are trading your ability to develop your calculation and tactical skills for easy games. I block every person I face who plays it.

Try a hard opening with many variations. You will lose more at the beginning, but you will sharpen your skills and be the better for it.

I should start doing that! I many only thin the herd, but the symbolic importance of removing them from sight would be enough.

Bramblyspam

There's nothing wrong with the London. After all, it's played at the world championship level. Sure, low-level players can play it badly and without understanding, but the same is true for every other opening. It can also be played well, with good understanding of its principles and nuances. If you think it's simple and boring, that's because you don't understand it and don't want to learn its nuances.

The London has been my mainstay as white for years. Most of my best games have come with the London. Here's one of my favorites, and I doubt anyone would claim that it's bad, boring, system chess. wink.png

 



NikkiLikeChikki
@stil1 you just made an argument for why players should NOT play the London. You play it the same. You don’t think. You don’t calculate. You’re a zombie waiting for the e5 push. You want to win, but at what cost? If you pull off the break properly or your opponent makes a mistake, you don’t have to think much about how to take advantage of it. If YOU make a mistake, you aren’t punished much because the setup is so solid. It’s the same garbage every time for beginners.

It’s a great argument if all you care about is winning, though.
NikkiLikeChikki
Top players play it sometimes in blitz or bullet because it’s fast and solid. Top players practically never play it in longer games. You know this Brambly.