In my research of the kings indian defense main line black play 4...d6. I believe it is played to prevent e5 by white. However, the chess.com database only has 5.e5 played 72 times with white winning 25% and black winning 75%. Whats going on? Does anyone know any games where this move is good? I guess 4...d6 does do more, propping up e5 and opening the bishop diagonal as well.
King's Indian Defense: Normal Variation, 4.e4 O-O 5.e5
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Nov 3, 2016
0
#2
Fischer won a well known game against this line after White played horribly.
However I do not believe in this position.
Looks like a very premature and weird 4 pawns attack.
After 9...Ne8 d6-c5 is comming. When Black gets perfect play.
Two move: would you link them?
https://www.chess.com/forum/search?keyword=kings+indian+defense&sortby=post_count
It is not easy to find those posts you say exist....
Nov 4, 2016
0
#6
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/d6-or-0-0
There is one fairly detailed one. There were others before it, comes up quite a lot.
Awesome thanks for that. I think the openings thread should be subdivided by major openings
Here is the other one mentioned by TwoMove:
https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/d6-or-0-0
Also, in a general way, don't trust win/loss stastitics for variation as soon as move 5. And for more "reliable" databases and statistics, you can select only games played by players (let's say) above 2400 on both sides.
Nov 4, 2016
0
#10
Merovwig wrote:
Also, in a general way, don't trust win/loss stastitics for variation as soon as move 5. And for more "reliable" databases and statistics, you can select only games played by players (let's say) above 2400 on both sides.
Those win/loss statistics are of limited usefulness.
For example: the 365chess data-base gives this line as EQUAL:
Equal? Until White plays 14. Bh6!, anyway...
14. Bh6 gxh6 15. Re5 Qd7 16. Rae1 Be6 17. d5! cxd5 18. Rxe6! and the h8-Rook drops.
Look at it this way. If White declines with a move like 5.Nf3 or 5.Be2, does Black have anything better to do than play 5...d6 anyway? Black needs to set up the pawns on dark squares in the center to get his play going. So why allow the 5.e5 advance?
jengaias wrote:
GreenCastleBlock wrote:
Look at it this way. If White declines with a move like 5.Nf3 or 5.Be2, does Black have anything better to do than play 5...d6 anyway? Black needs to set up the pawns on dark squares in the center to get his play going. So why allow the 5.e5 advance?
The answer is simple.Allow 5.e5 because it gives Black targets.
Sounds like hope chess to me. 5.e5 is not as bad as its reputation and good for White advantage if followed up correctly. Since Black doesn't gain any additional possibilities with 4...O-O, the only reason for selecting that move would be to hope White advances 5.e5 and doesn't know enough theory, in which case, yes, Black will get a good game.
Nov 4, 2016
0
#13
i think 5.e5 is a good move for white, white can be a shade better on perfect play but black's pawn breaks are easy to find. i don't know what the benefits are of delaying ...d6 for black objectively speaking black is ok in the main lines although i don't find the KID to be an especially practical opening against 2300+ atm as someone not up to date on theory. i know that KID players sometimes use strange move orders to get preferred versions of the Samisch (lines where White plays f3). i recall in some game of john bartholomew against some german gm in bullet on 5.f3 he may have played c5 and white does not have the option of exchanging wins via dc dc qxq as could have happened if d6 had been played. black occasionally has an option of going ...b5 in some positions where d6 has been omitted in benko style
Nov 4, 2016
0
#14
GreenCastleBlock escribió:
jengaias wrote:
GreenCastleBlock wrote:
Look at it this way. If White declines with a move like 5.Nf3 or 5.Be2, does Black have anything better to do than play 5...d6 anyway? Black needs to set up the pawns on dark squares in the center to get his play going. So why allow the 5.e5 advance?
The answer is simple.Allow 5.e5 because it gives Black targets.
Sounds like hope chess to me. 5.e5 is not as bad as its reputation and good for White advantage if followed up correctly. Since Black doesn't gain any additional possibilities with 4...O-O, the only reason for selecting that move would be to hope White advances 5.e5 and doesn't know enough theory, in which case, yes, Black will get a good game.
Could you share with us what perfect play for White is?
Nope, no engine evaluations were harmed in the making of this post. I've already explained the logic. Maybe you would like to cite the reason why the GMs you are mentioning prefer the 4...O-O move order? Oh, wait, you don't know? Why not try sending them an email?
If you want to be spoon-fed analysis, maybe you should be a little more respectful.
Nov 4, 2016
0
#16
GreenCastleBlock, show us the refutation, how exactly can White get a slight advantage?
We dont want spoon-fed analysis, we want you to support your statements.
Nov 4, 2016
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#18
4...0-0 will usually transpose, however I dont see any way for White to take advantage of this move order.
Nov 4, 2016
0
#19
However seems like GreenCastle likes to make outrageous statements and jengaias has anger management problems. (also delusional maybe, why do you think he is looking into an engine?)