Learning 1.e4 e5 thoroughly

I want to learn 1.e4 e5 well...especially as Black for now. However, I would also like to learn it from White's perspective.

I want a repertoire(s), but I ALSO want to UNDERSTAND the reasonings behind each move. I want to be able to play the Ruy Lopez, Petrov, Italian, Marshall Attack, Marshall Gambit, Berlin, Scotch, Four Knights, you name it -- whatever may arise.

What set of books would you recommend? I would imagine I would probably need material on levels anywhere between beginner on up.

I have the Kaufmann books, and they have lines to play...but they assume one already understands the reasoning for the moves (for the most part). Thanks.

Maybe Modern chess openings. The complete chess player by Fred Reinfeld.

Here are some book excerpts from general opening books that emphasize double e-pawn openings that should get you started. I don't have any full book recommendations yet, though, sorry.

http://chessmess.yolasite.com/resources/the_ideas_behind_the_chess_openings_fine.txt

http://chessmess.yolasite.com/resources/modern_chess_openings_10.txt

One thing I learned from Fine's book is that double e-pawn defenses fall into two categories: (1) strong point method, (2) counterattack method. That helps a person not only to mentally categorize such openings, but to understand the most fundamental ideas behind them.

Any book by Fine should be good.

Sounds like you want to be a jack of all trades and master of none ... 

Some of the titled players on this site said it is a must to learn the Ruy Lopez, Queen's Gambit etc. inside and out.

This is just responding to 1.e4 with e5. I'll be asking about the Caro-Kann in a month. Then the French. Center-counter....

I guess I could just learn part of 1.e4 e5. That's what you did to become a National Master I'm sure.

Any book by Fine is fine?

Already planning to switch to the Caro-Kann in a month? And then what are you going to spend a month not learning after that?

You must mean "very casual familiarity with" when you say "understanding of".

What if you don't understand the open games by month's end? Have you ever noticed how 3rd grade pretty much repeats 50% of second grade, then fourth grade repeats 60% of 3rd grade, etc, until finally in college you spend half your time taking courses that cover less than you've already learned in high school? Do you know why all of that inefficiency happens in modern education? It's because instead of scheduling things naturally, according to actual outcomes, they use time as a basis.

How about instead of planning to study the Caro-Kann next month, you plan to tackle it whenever you've actually accomplished whatever goal it is that you have for the open games?

If you really want understanding of the open games, you will have to spend a lot of time playing them in slow games against stronger players, making the effort to calculate variations, struggling and suffering through the bad positions that you'll see a lot of after your inevitable errors. After fifty games played like that, you will be at the beginning of understanding. Just reading a book won't give you understanding. As good as Fine's Ideas Behind the Chess Openings is, and as true as its words are, you won't understand it until you've internalized it, and you can only do that by trying to apply the ideas, and then seeing where you failed, discovering why you failed, and then repeating, trying not to fail the same ways again. After all that, if you stick to it long enough to develop an inuitive feeling for what a good move or a bad move looks like, then you can say that you understand the open games - at least as far as your current ability level allows.

No, I am not "switching" the Caro-Kann in a month. It was sarcasm. I thought that was apparent. However, I will eventually pick up a second response to 1.e4 if that's okay with you. I have no idea how long it will take me until I decide to do so, but I'll be the one to make that decision.

It's okay to do things in parallel too. One should not be rigid in one's didactic path. There is no one right way, although many people seem to think their way is the only way. Play open Sicilian as a beginner. Don't play open Sicilian as a beginner. (I get both from different Masters.) Don't study openings as a beginner. Study openings as a beginner. (I get both from different Masters.)

JL--Ease off on the criticism. Your way is not the ONLY way or necessarily the right way. That should be borne in mind. I do appreciate the advice you have given, however. Just keep in mind that other people with more experience than you disagree with some of the things you have advised, and have privately told me so. That doesn't mean you are wrong, necessarily.

That being said, I don't want to spread myself too thin. I think a general familiarilty with major openings makes sense though.

Let's get this first question addressed before we start jumping to conclusions, please.

Thus far, chess2Knights is the only one who has addressed my very reasonable question. I love to hear opinions -- just keep in mind that there will always be someone better than you who disagrees with you...and others who agree.

Now, enough digression. I just want to address the question I asked -- not whether it is prudent to study the Caro-Kann in X number of days.

I think you missed both my and NM Reb's points, which are absolutely on topic here. At least once a month, you post this same question regarding some opening or another, so yes, I failed to see that your remark about the Caro-Kann was sarcastic in any way. I also don't understand where you find much criticism in my response. If I was criticizing anything, it was the shallow nature of the average amateur's approach to learning chess, and I see that as being quite germane to the topic....

You may not realize this, but we've all been there and done that. You're not doing anything new; when we see someone repeating the same old errors - the ones we're still trying to work out from under - we try to warn you. You can take it or leave it, but if you don't want to hear it don't ask for advice in public forums.

I also never said my way was the only way; on the contrary, in my other answers to your posts about essentially this same subject, I've specifically said so. I don't feel the need to repeat my disclaimer every single time, nor should anyone ever have to provide one in the first place. It goes without saying. I know and can quote several GMs who disagree with a lot of my views about "chess education". The thing with most GMs is that they were never chronically amateur players. They didn't languish at a rating of 1400 - many never even saw such a low rating. So I've come to understand that strong players' advice is often contextual.

Yes, I agree that a general familiarity with the openings is important, as I'd suggested a while back. But that is off topic. This topic is about "thoroughly learning" one particular set of openings.

Both NM Reb and I responded to your topic exactly as written. In my case, in addition to agreeing with the suggestion of Fine's Ideas Behind the Chess Openings, I suggested that you play the open games in slow time control games, struggling through bad positions, for at least 50 games. That's how you understand things in chess. You think about them, for yourself, in real, slow time control games. Same as anything else, really; to "thoroughly learn" anything takes real, concerted individual effort and perseverence in the face of adversity.

How you find that to be overly critical, much less off topic is beyond me, but that's my response to your very reasonable question.

My question: How to learn 1.e4 e5...

Responses:

chess2Knight: reasonable good advice no doubt

NATIONAL MASTER givez me a wise crack and a silly emoticon. That's all. No advice re my question: "Sounds like you want to be a jack of all trades and master of none ... " THE END.

Am I being trolled by chess Masters? Come on guys.

JLConn: scathing diatriabe that has STILL not addressed my question.

"Already planning to switch to the Caro-Kann in a month? And then what are you going to spend a month not learning after that?"

Whatever I want, is the answer.

Is that how you talk to people in real life?

Do you have me on "track" so you can follow me around and post feculent matter? I don't have time for these frivolities. Joking is fine, but you are taking my thread off track and wasting everyone's time. Do that in a fun thread. There are plenty. Go post about how Carlsen sucks and Anand eats him for breakfast or something silly.

You gave me some SUPERB advice in the past that I greatly appreciate. Now you are about ready to do a freaking Power Point presentation on the number of times I ask about an opening and the frequency thereof. Can I have that in bar chart AND pie graph form?

You may both be great guys, and you surely know WAY more than I do about this game; however, you talk about wasting time and in doing so waste more time.

My fingers hurt and I still don't have the advice for which I asked. I love constructive criticism, but starting off with "Already planning to switch to the Caro-Kann in a month? And then what are you going to spend a month not learning after that?" and not following up with anything but implication that I'm some kind of moron is a waste of everyone's time.

Please address the question, and well as give any constructive criticism. I know you have it in you. Again, just because I ask about an opening more frequently than suit you does not mean I am not heeding your advice. I told you that a long time ago. You are not privy to my study regiment. Well, today it has been about half an hour of trying to get blood out of a stone.

If you are looking for something to do, tell me again your opinion about playing the open Sicilian. I had one National Master and chess coach totally agree with you, and another former 2300+ and former chess coach disagree. That's not the subject of this thread, and neither is the Caro-Kann. It was sarcasm (to repeat myself).

If you have advice to my question, I'm all ears. I listen to anyone who has more experience than I. I then make my own decisions based on the aggregation of data.

So far we have 10,000 words and recommendation of two books.

Anything else to add?

chicken ,chess is rich many lines ,look at new ones thats your choice

e4 e5 lines why not its standard classical chess cannot see how that can be bad

unless you want to become a master of say the sicilian then its a distraction

I've started playing 1...e5 as an answer to 1.e4 about two years ago. I think I start to understand the Ruy Lopez a bit better now. I'm only rated 2000 OTB, that's why it's a slow process I guess...

As soon as I feel I've mastered the Ruy, I'll come back to this thread and post what I hope will be relevant advice to tackle this sub-part of your mega-project...

thechesswebsite is a place to start. They give a video on each chess opening. Just pick each video which starts 1. e4  e5.

The following video is worth watching. It explains, compares, and contrasts some aspects of the Ruy Lopez with the Italian Game. Very clear. Professionally done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hriSNXPkIA

@hicetunc: Thanks. Yes, it is a big project. Chess is a big project. I enjoy the "work" though, or I woudln't do it.

@ponz111: I was not familiar with that site. I'll make a note to check it out. I don't think the concepts in the Spanish Game are that abstruse, but it does require some "hitting of the books" if you want to understand and not go by memorization only (bad idea).

I've read good things about Bologan's Black Weapons in the Open Games.

@Chicken_Monster

Learning 1 e4 e5 as Black is a major undertaking. I know because I am doing it for the last 1 1/2 years already and I am nowhere near complete in the learning and - especially - the understanding. It is a huge range of openings that Black should be familiar with because White has a ton of choices other than the Ruy Lopez (e.g. Italian, Scotch, Kings Gambit)

There are a bunch of 1 e4 e5 opening books for Black. I happen to own John Emms "Play the Open Games as Black" which I am going by. It may or may not be the "best" for this opening universe - I don't know and I don't care too much. At my level it would surely be good enough if I am familiar with all the lines presented in there. Caveat: Emms covers everything ...e5 *BUT* the Ruy Lopez. So for Ruy you have to find something else.

There is a pretty new book from Viktor Bologan ("Black Weapons...") and one from Nigel Davies ("Play 1 e4 e5") which may also cover the Ruy Lopez. Davies sure does, not entirely sure about Bologan though.

I probably missing a few good books in the 1 e4 e5 space. You can easily do your own research.

However, no theoretical study will replace first-hand experience gained by playing the openings over the board in long time controls. I can tell you that I usually get good positions in the opening because of learned knowledge from e.g. Emms book. But then comes the tricky part about how to proceed from there, how to build upon any advantage or keep it equal. And this understanding about plans and positional ideas you will gain only with practical play and subsequent analysis, preferrably with a stronger player/friend. Of course replaying with the computer helps too but they don't explain you anything.

I recently was in a tournament where for the first time ever, opponents allowed me as Black to play the Closed Ruy Lopez 3 times. Interestingly I could get into my pet preparation in all 3 games. First game I forgot part of my prep and eventually lost tactically. Second game I remembered all the theory, got a nicely playable position but made positional and tactical mistakes and lost again. Third game I remembered all the theory, implemented a different plan which turned out to be good. I still make some middlegame mistakes (as did the opponent) but I got a clearly winning endgame which I botched and it was a draw. But basically I could build upon each bad game and get a little better in the next one.

I happen to have a pal at my club who is about my "strength" and who is also eager to learn 1 e4 e5 as White and Black. We have recently agreed to a friendly match of who will first achieve 6 wins. And we agreed to always open with 1 e4 e5. We recently played our first game. I was Black and he went for a line I once played as White and got soundly beaten in due to *exactly* the same opening mistake and my opponent taking advantage of it. So I got a winning position against my club pal but eventually got materialistically greedy and lost.

My point is that I could expose his bad opening play by having played exactly the same bad opening myself as White 6 months ago and learning from it. It's not rocket science, just time consuming in the sense that you need many games until you can really say you have learned "it" and understanding increases.

Pre-arranging training games with a friend I think is a great way to get the necessary practice in whatever your favorite opening.

@Synaphai: I glanced at a review of Bologan's a long time ago. Looked very good, but wasn't it a repertoire for everything but the Ruy Lopez? I could be mistaken. Going from memory but I thought the review said something about that ... some review on Amazon I believe... Could be a nice supplement though!

@XPLAYA: Today I learned (1) you are nine years old (this was a rumor going aroud) lol, and (2) you don't know the QG yet (which is true and I can't believe it because you are a really strong player).

I'm not sure why you learned the Pincer before QG but who am I to judge your chess. :-)

Umm, yeah, it is a big task folks. Take the word "thoroughly" with a big grain of salt though. I don't expect to know every permutation in every move of all of those openings and the meanings thereof. I'm not trying to beat Carlsen. I just thought there might be a couple books that were good. That's all guys. Chill.

A repertoire book for 1....e5 and a book for 1.e4 that explains stuff well. Or maybe I need a couple of books. Bottom line is that I should know lines for all of those openings and more (not every line, but a line or two) and I should understand the reasoning behind the moves iIplay.

I know there are some books on repertoire sfor 1...e5 for Black...one by Nigel Davies...there was another 1.e4 e5 book by Emms...I think one did not cover the Marshall Attack...I read that in a review...

There are some books with the term "open games" or "playing the open games" in them if I recall...there are books about anands openings...all kinds of books....not sure who has experience with them.

Surely someone must know how to play 1...e5 with the possibility of ending up in Ruy Lopez, Italian etc., and understand the moves they are making....

Watch the video I posted up above. That's the kind of stuff you want to understand. Maybe the best way is take something like lines from Kauffman and flesh out meaning by going to a non-repretoire series such as John Watson or one of the other books mentioned in this thread... There is also FCO...not sure how good the explanations are....

I really ike to thank those who needlessly ruined this thread at the outset and ensured that many people who would have been helpful will never make it this far. Really appreciate the endeavors of those particular people. Tonight I've already received offline private comments about how arrogant some can be (from people who follow my posts) and saw this.

Yeah, XPLAYA if you have a recommendation please I'm all ears. I'll never know everything.

Maybe I should start studying the Caro-Kann right now. No that would irritate people. :-)

Thanks Tom. We wrote those messages simultaneously, and mentioned some of the same things I see.

You worry too much about openings.

However, 1...e5 is a great choice. Play the Chigorin against the Spanish Game (Valeri Lilov has a video on here about that), the ...Bc5 lines against the Scotch and Italian, and maybe learn both 4...Bb4 and 4...Nd4 in the Four Knights Spanish, because 4...Bb4 is very hard to play for a win, while 4...Nd4 is more wild and interesting. Against King's Gambit, play 2...d5 followed by 3. exd5 exf4.

The above is more or less my black repertoire against 1. e4, although that's just the main stuff I play. I have a lot of additional analysis in a few other Ruy lines and stuff, in case I want to deviate from my main repertoire.