London System, what to do after BF4

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Freiberg

I just played an opponent which started off with the London system, and once I analyzed the game, I found it trouble some to find the right move after Bf4.
My question is, wether f6 would have helped me more to develop my minor pieces than bringing out Nf6 and loosing the center in the middle of the game?
Full game:1.d4 d5  2.Nf3 Nc6  3.Bf4 Nf6  4.e3 a6  5.Nc3 h6
6.Bd3 g5  7.Be5 Be6  8.Qe2 Bg7  9.O-O-O Qd7  10.h4 Nxe5
11.Nxe5 Qd6  12.hxg5 Ne4  13.Nxe4 dxe4 14.Bxe4 O-O-O
15.a3 f6  16.gxf6 Bxf6  17.Bf3 Qb6  18.Bg4 Kb8  19.Bxe6 Qxe6  20.f4 Bxe5  21.fxe5 Qd5  22.g4 Qa2  23.Qf3 Qa1+  24.Kd2 Qxb2  25.Ra1 e6 26.Rhb1 Rxd4+  27.exd4 Qxd4+  28.Ke2 Qxe5+  29.Kf2 Qh2+ 30.Qg2 Rf8+
31.Ke3 Qxg2 32.Rg1 Qf2+ 33.Kd3 Rd8+  34.Kc3 Qd2+
35.Kb2 Rd6  36.Rad 1Rb6+  37.Ka1 Qc3+  38.Ka2 Qb2#
Tips and hints gladly welcome.
Willi Freiberg

poucin

a6...

h6...

Develop your pieces!

Bg4-e6-Bd6 or Bb4 if c4 played, castle, etc...

SaintGermain32105

Just something to think about.

DrSpudnik

I think you're supposed to offer a draw.

SaintGermain32105

Only once, as far as I remember, and it was very drawish, and anyway if you want them to play...

TwoMove

It's not necessary for black to play the softwareish move 3...g5. To take advantage of nf6 not being played black can play 3...c5xd4 4e3xd4 Qb6. Otherwise can play the more universal answer 3...Nf6 followed by bd6.

SaintGermain32105
TwoMove wrote:

It's not necessary for black to play the softwareish move 3...g5. To take advantage of nf6 not being played black can play 3...c5xd4 4e3xd4 Qb6. Otherwise can play the more universal answer 3...Nf6 followed by bd6.

No engine whatsoever gives g5 among his choices.

TwoMove

Yeah engine gives 2..g5, so you use it for motivation next move. You do this a lot in your trollish analysis.

SaintGermain32105
TwoMove wrote:

Yeah engine gives 2..g5, so you use it for motivation next move. You do this a lot in your trollish analysis.

No it doesn't, and that's because you are down a pawn in some instances.

ThrillerFan

In response to the OP, a better idea is not bringing the Knight out to c6.  1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 is better.  Then after 3.Bf4, 3...Nc6 is not anywhere near best.

Black has a number of options, and a lot depends on style of play.  3...e6 and 3...c5 I would presume are the most popular, though I can't swear to the "popularity" contest as I'm not a 1...d5 player.  I can tell you both moves are fine, but you'll have to go elsewhere if you are looking for popularity or statistics.

poucin

@ThrillerFan :

u are a bit off topic if OP plays Chigorine on 1.d4...

So it would be logical to play 2...Nc6.

But He didnt tell what he really played on usual lines, so maybe he doesnt know what to play on 1.d4 too...

Nc6 being the kind of move played by beginner, thinking they develop a piece "normally", but...

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

@ThrillerFan :

u are a bit off topic if OP plays Chigorine on 1.d4...

So it would be logical to play 2...Nc6.

But He didnt tell what he really played on usual lines, so maybe he doesnt know what to play on 1.d4 too...

Nc6 being the kind of move played by beginner, thinking they develop a piece "normally", but...

As one that played the Chigorin back in 2007, I can tell you that while some Chigorin books try to find some line for Black after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6, they are simply looking for an "easy route" so the Chigorin player doesn't have to play something else if tricked into a transposition.

That said, I think the Chigorin setup is horrible for Black if White hasn't committed to c4.  The Chigorin is an accelerated attack on d4.  If White hasn't pushed either neighboring pawn to c4 or e4, then he has done nothing to weaken his strongpoint at d4.  With pawns on e3 and c3, a Knight on c6 without a ...c5 advance first is just horrible for Black.

 

So I still claim, even if you play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6, the move 2...Nc6 after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 is truly an error the way I see it.  The fact that White can no longer play c3 after having played 2.c4 makes a major difference.

poucin

if it is so bad, i wonder why Carlsen played it (1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6), as Ivantchuk, Short playing on a regular basis, Ponomariov, Nepomniachtchi, Morozevitch, and many other strong GM...

I think playing Nc6 for a inexperienced player is a clear mistake (queen's gambit declined for instance is very useful to learn for black), but telling it is horrible when such players play it, hum...

SaintGermain32105

Carlsen? Right. It's as normal as any other opening.

Iluvmarlies

this is a novelty I recently discovered:



lolurspammed

"Follow the classics". Screw that, I'll play the KID.

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

if it is so bad, i wonder why Carlsen played it (1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6), as Ivantchuk, Short playing on a regular basis, Ponomariov, Nepomniachtchi, Morozevitch, and many other strong GM...

I think playing Nc6 for a inexperienced player is a clear mistake (queen's gambit declined for instance is very useful to learn for black), but telling it is horrible when such players play it, hum...

Even the strongest do stupid things.

 

Why did Gus Ferrotte headbutt the concrete wall at his own stadium when he scored a touchdown for the Redskins in 1997 against the Giants, removing him from the rest of the game in a game that ended in a 7-7 tie after an even dumber move by Michael Westbrook, taking his helmet off in overtime for a 15 yard penalty and resulting in being out of field goal range with seconds left in overtime?

 

So because the pros do it, I guess you'll headbutt concrete walls and do other stupid acts that result in penalties, like weed or dope or drinking and driving?

 

How about the 110 mile per hour car race between Bobby Phills and David Wesley in a Speed Limit 45 (I've lived in or just around Charlotte for the last 27+ years - know the area well where the crash happened)?  That mean you should do it because pros did it?  Phills died on the spot!  That what you want?

 

So just because Carlsen played 2...Nc6 in a single game after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 doesn't mean I condone the move!

Freiberg
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Freiberg

IM Pochin is completly right.
In 99% of my openings as white I play Ruy Lopez, but as black I am completly lost to any kind of opening, well that's where I start to study them. I got it from the opening book online. So I am simply looking for a clear advice in order to be able to improof my game. I am trying to focus on building a strong center first in any game I play though.

ShianAntigeroy

Qb6