I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but I'm looking for an opening/defense for black that is pretty robust against either a king or queen's pawn opening.  I'm thinking it may involve a fianchetto on either side.

I'd also like this opening to not include a lot of book moves, so that my inexperienced players don't have to memorize too much to get into position. 

My thoughts are derived from looking at the King's Indian attack for white, since no matter how black plays, you can get into that position pretty easily and there aren't too many book moves to remember.

Is there a compliment to the KIA for black?

thanks

Neil

A black counterpart to the King's Indian Attack...

... The King's Indian? I think the ...Nf6, ...g6, ...d6, ...Bg7, ...0-0 setup or something along those lines can be reached in just about any case, even if it ends up having a lot of different names. You can have them reply to 1.e4 or 1.c4 with ...d6 and to 1.d4 with ...Nf6. Then tell them how their Bg7 can be very strong if they free the long diagonal and they should watch out for discovered attack possibilities with their Nf6, but that they should also hold on to their Bg7 to defend their king, and that they should eventually break up their opponent's center by ...c5 or ...e5 to give some space to their pieces. Prepare them on how to counter premature enemy central advances like ...d5 or something. I dunno. I have no idea how far advanced your students are.

I think the problem is that there's "book" for just about anything worth playing. You don't have to learn much opening theory at all to do fairly well as a beginner if you know what you're supposed to do in the opening you've chosen - opponents of your own skill level will play the same kind of strange stuff. In my mind, the danger of teaching rigid "systems" is that players neglect to look for opportunities that arise out of the opponent's play, or completely break down once something they were taught to do doesn't immediately get them the win, or look for non-existant mating attacks when they would have to settle for a winning material advantage for the endgame. Teach strategic principles, prime their minds for tactics and combinations using puzzles and showing and explaining games, and teach them how to win the winning endgames and draw the drawn ones, so they might end up winning some drawn ones or drawing some losing ones later instead of going in the other direction.

Wow, thanks for the indepth response.

In the King's Indian, the opening offers a lot of attacking opportunities no matter what white does.  So I was wondering if there is a black opening that gets into some attacking positions without much regard to what white does.

For instance, if black starts out with moving like this (see diagram), where he doesn't get too far extended and starts to fianchetto on the king side and wants to castle kingside very quickly.  He hasn't developed but can sit back a bit more and try to create some imbalances once he sees how white is progressing.

I realize that tactics will be important and they'll still need to coordinate pieces, but too often in black they get themselves into awkward positions if white does something out of the ordinary.

Neil

PS

As I look at this now, this does look something like a French defense, right?

You are asking for the impossible. Anything that is "robust" is also pretty well booked up. The two most promising lines against 1. e4 are the Sicilian and 1...e5. Huge systems.

If you really are lazy, there is a guy at my club (not too often) who plays d6, c6 & Nd7 on the first 3 moves against anything. It's kind of sucky & dull, but if you want to not study, it's pretty much what you can expect.

it's not that I or my students don't want to study, it's that they are involved in 10 different activities, and as much as they like chess and want to improve, there are only 24 hrs in a day. 

So maybe I need to re-phrase.  It can be pretty booked up, but what are some pretty natural progressions?  Anything besides the French, or Sicilian?  I'm going to go back and look at the Caro-Kann.

Neil

Modern defence? Basically playing g6, Bg7, d6, Nc6, Nf6, 0-0 (with a few moves inbetween if needed) then the idea of e5 soon?

I personally like using for white the Italian game because you can make that into many different games, such as the Evans Gambit.

For black I like to use the french of just 1..e5 depending on if white moves thier King or Queen's pawn. 

I personally believe that openings only get you so far and you should focus more on studying the middle and end games because that is what will more often make or break you. 

Try the Nf6 Scandinavian ... lots of tactics which is what most people starting out should be getting a healthy dose of. Robust enough for "club" play (before the naysayers start hurling abuse!) though the Bb5+ lines are where White can give Black quite the headache if Black is not prepped well enough.

I'd suggest that C6 is a decent option, allows a decent option against E4 if you dont mind loosing space

And it also works against D4

Ok, so the moves played arent ideal, but you can play both lines with very little theory

If you need robust "no book" defence, you might take a look at Hippo.

It may not be a best learning path though. While at it, look at the Hedgehog as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippopotamus_Defence

free book:

http://www.beginnersgame.com/TheBeginner%27sGame.pdf

Hedgehog:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_%28chess%29

I read what Fezzik wrote, but I was immediately thinking of Tiger's Modern with ...a6.  I think that would give you plenty of freedom to try ideas, with plenty of pawnbreaks available, plus open diagonals for your bishops.  Another route is to try a double fianchetto.  Bauer did write a book on 1...b6! that mentions some of Spielmann's games, and I believe Keene liked the double fianchetto too. 

as for me c6 is pretty nice cause:

1. it requires studying just two openings: caro-kann and slav but they are HUGE.

2. they both are very solid systems

3. you can learn just one line in slav: 1. d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3. Kf3 Kf6 4.Kc3 dxc4

Soltis recommends that in:

Black Defensive System For The Rest Of Your Chess Career

Consider something based upon the QGD.

Against everything but 1.e4, and unless your opponent forces the issue, you trot out e6, d5, Nf6, Be7, and 0-0, and then planning can revolve around how to best make c5 happen and get the light squared bishop active.

And maybe pair this with the French.  With, again, e6 and d5, and again, a plan revolving around how to best make c5 happen and do something with the light squared bishop.

Seirawan had a book I browsed through on Chess Openings several years ago (can't remember exact title but I'm sure it's on Amazon.com).  After discussing a lot of openings and what each side was doing, he used the last half of the book to propose the Barcza to use as white (basically KIA), and then the KID and Pirc as the two black openings for responses to d4 and e4.  He proposed them based on theory of "building a house" to protect the king and then natural development.  Learning them can be fairly simple on main lines but also gives a chance to let you develop from there.  He didn't really have a suggestion for the English.

does one book count? LOL

Play the Modern Rat, and Modern Averbakh, 1..g6

Not ten pages of theory in the lot, been playing it for 20 years myself.

It's pointless, in my opinion, to teach opening lines to casual players (as you describe your students).   It's better to teach them basic opening theory (control of the center, piece development, castling, etc.) and let them play.  As they play games, they'll get into different positions and learn from the experience.  That's more important than learning a series of moves or an inflexible pattern.  If they want to get more seriously involved in the game, then they can learn openings.  

Who wants to waste their time learning an opening that they may not like to play?

There is no one-size-fits-all opening. And there is no easy route to enjoyable, yet high-quality, chess.