Neo-Catalan and Catalan ideas and differences.

Hey everyone, I've been trying to find some resources on the Neo-Catalan, but there isn't much online (even for the regular Catalan there isn't much.) I'm wondering, is it just a slightly off-beat way of getting into a Catalan (d4 is delayed) that may even be strictly worse or are there some independent ideas for White.

What does the delayed d4 give white/what is the significance of the extra tempo/the substitution of this move with an earlier Nf3/Bg2

There's nothing off-beat or inferior about the Neo-Catalan, in fact it's equally good as the standard Catalan, and at the amateur level is more realistic in terms of the lines you have to face.

Delaying d4 prevents black from playing Bb4+, which is one of the main ways black can equalise against the Catalan. It also allows you to meet an early dxc4 with Qa4+, which while possible in the regular Catalan is unhelpful, but in the Neo-Catalan the d-pawn may go to d3 after Qa4+.

Thank you for the response!

So something like c4 e6 g3 d5 Bg2 dxc4 Qa4+ c3/Nd7 Qxc4 leads to an independent line in the Neo-Catalan like you mentioned, because d3 can be played, but what about if Black doesn't take and goes for a Closed Catalan structure. Is d4 the move of choice then?

1 c4 e6 2 g3 d5  3 Bg2 Nf6 4 (is it nf3/d4 with ideas of transposing into regular Catalan?)

And also,

If Black plays c6, eg

1 c4 e6 2 g3 d5  3 Bg2 c6 

So that Qa4 is no longer check and the c4 pawn is now in danger of being captured. I know that this also occurs in the Catalan and generally White is comfortable in giving up the pawn at least temporarily, does the same apply in the Neo-Catalan? Does it simply transpose back? It seems like b3 is also possible here

You only play d4 once black has played Be7. Then we don't mind going into the Closed Catalan, as it's a slightly inferior version in which black wasn't able to play Bb4+.

Also, against c6 you are correct that b3 is the move, when white scores well probably because black has committed his central pawns allowing white to attack in hypermodern fashion.

I probably wouldn't sacrifice the pawn since the lines in which it's sacrificed in the Catalan usually occur after black already spent a tempo on Nf6, making it take longer for black to consolidate.

I see... so building out my repertoire, i normall play 1 c4 2 g3, because I like the reverse Sicilian. After 1 .. Nf6 there's still some ambiguity in Black's plan, so I do prefer g3.

Is there any situation where White is actually looking to capture on d5? I used to capture almost all the time (before I discovered the main ideas in the regular Catalan) now. I only capture when opponent plays the Anglo-Scandinavian ( which seems dubious but happens to me sometimes regardless.) 

I suppose the difference of Nf3 vs c4 first is the difference of allowing either reverse Sicilian or reverse benoni, and with 1c4 if Black played e6 reverse benoni is still possible but some seemingly non-critical version 

I guess I'm also capturing on d5 in case of

1 c4 Nf6 2 g3 d5 3 cxd5,

But other than that I guess the things that fall into the realm of Neo-Catalan will be Black's Nf6 e6 d5 right? Can black also follow up with a King's fianchetto with g6? Or is this bad for some reason?

As far as I can tell you can't play the Reversed Benoni against 1.Nf3 2.g3, except for the variation that you can also play after 1.c4. 1.Nf3 2.c4 does allow the Reversed Benoni, which is why it's quite rare these days.

Following up e6 with g6 seems to be the "Wang Chen Catalan", and there's some information about it at ChessPublishing, but I don't know anything about it other than that it seems suspect, and may be even worse against the Neo-Catalan due to a double fianchetto with b3.

I'm not aware of scenarios where cxd5 is a good idea; more experienced players may know better, but I don't see a reason to free up a diagonal for black's bishop while releasing tension in the centre.

Actually I think that in some scenarios a b6 and Bb7 setup can advantageously be met with cxd5 to encourage black to block the bishop's diagonal

c4 e6 g3 d5 Bg2 dxc4 Qa4+ c3/Nd7 Qxc4 it is true it's an independent line but that's about it.  Nothing bad for white or anything, but don't think white gains much from the pawn on d3.  Personally play the main line with be7, 0.0 then d5xc4. It avoids any transposing tricks by white.

1.c4 Nf6 2g3 c6 followed by d5 is very solid for black. 1Nf3 d5 2c4 d4 is a serious option for black,

I agree these are good practical options for white, were white gets the game they want but there isn't any objective advantage. That's probably true of any resonable opening though.

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 is a serious option for black, but surely you can't play that after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 ? If black plays some stuff with c5 then white responds with d4 and a reversed Grunfeld

But is a reverse grunfeld better for black than a reverse benoni?

The only reverse benoni that's critical in the Reti I think is the Nf3 d5 c4 d4, in which e5 is still possible in one move.

With c4 e6 g3 d5 Bg2 d4, black already committed to e6.

And with c4 Nf6 g3 d5 you can take cxd5 and he's not recapturing with the pawn.

The e6 Reversed Benoni is actually pretty critical. I play it myself sometimes and it shows up frequently in GM games, often with black achieving a draw. The idea is that black doesn't need to play e5 since the pawn on d4 isn't especially under attack, while the e6 move just helps black continue standard development, e.g. with Bd6.

After 1Nf3 d5 2g3 d4 would be a bit weird 2....Bg4 then a later c6, and e6 quite flexible for black. Sometimes can play Bd6, and Ne7, instead of Nf6.

Looking at chess.com database,

After Nf3 d5 c4 d4 

It seems like black is mostly aiming for e5.

3 b4 f6, 4 .. e5

And

3 g3 Nc6 4 Bg2 e5.

Do you have any examples of games where black plays e6?

Not really, I think aiming for e5 is the right idea.

https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=4086522

A quick database search reveals games from Nakamura, So, Anand and Mamedyarov, so it's hardly an obscure sideline, though it's not played in the specific move order you gave since 3.g3 Nc6 is supposed to give black easy equality.

But then what do you play after:

Nf3 d5 g3 Nf6 Bg2 e6 O-O c5

d4 doesn't seem that great and c4 transposes into the game you posted

Then d4 going for a reversed Grunfeld. However, I'm not claiming that this move order avoids the e6 Reversed Benoni - it doesn't since as soon as white plays c4 black can play d4. However, what I'm saying is that 1.c4 doesn't avoid this specific line either, due to 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.Nf3 d4.

In fact, you don't need to play d4 here as there isn't any move order drawback of playing c4, for example immediately after e6 is a transposition to the standard Neo-Catalan.

That's true. But without c4 Black never really has to play e6. He can do d5 c5 Nf6 Nc6.

But yeah, I guess this e6 reverse-benoni line is kind of unavoidable with Neo-Catalan and that's one of the major trade offs between it and the regular Catalan, which plays d4 early huh?

I'm also a really big fan of the Neo-Catalan. Frankly, it was kind of gratifying to discover that it actually has a name. It makes it feel a little more legitimate. I mean, obviously, plenty of terrible openings get names as well, but being named somehow elevates it beyond, you know, a bunch of moves that I just happened to take a shine to.