Just like all the other bogus posts of ranking moves, this one is also full of bleep!
Case in point - 1...a6, 1...c6, 1...h6, and 1...b5 are all FAR BETTER than 1...g5??
3...c5 is NOT number 8. It's better than 3...Nc6, 3...b6, even 3...g6, which is best played against 1.c4 where the long diagonal is already weakened.
Just like the $tupid threads ranking the 20 responses to e4, 20 responses to d4, White first moves, etc, this one is just as useless and wrong as the others!
I was not able to read the list. But personally, I think Nf6 is the best response to 1.Nf3
I was not able to read the list. But personally, I think Nf6 is the best response to 1.Nf3
There is no "Best" response to 1...Nf3. A lot depends on Black's specific style of play.
1...Nf6, 1...d5, 1...c5, 1...e6, 1...c6, etc are all objectively equally good! All the more reason that these "rank lists" are bull(bleep).
It's just like the defenses to 1.e4. 1...e5, 1...e6, 1...c5, and 1...c6 are all objectively good, and the other 16 moves are weaker to variying degrees.
The whole thread is hogwash!
EX Tier:
1… Nf6, 1… e6, 1… d6, 1… d5, 1… c5, 1… c6
A Tier:
1… g6, 1… b5
B Tier:
1… f5, 1… Nc6, 1… b6
C Tier:
1… g5, 1… h6, 1… a6
F Tier:
All else, but especially 1… e5
This is rubbish for black despite showing the most common moves for both players at master level following 1c6.
Black has decent compensation for the missing pawn.
c5 leads to Open Sicilian which I'm very anti for black, because he needs to know more theory than white.
Have you seen the stats? c6 is not top tier.
And why is a6 better than h6? They should at least be in the same tier, as h6 also deters further movement from the knight.
Have you seen the stats? c6 is not top tier.
And why is a6 better than h6? They should at least be in the same tier, as h6 also deters further movement from the knight.
I’ll answer your second question first. I put them in the same tier, but I believe a6 to be better, as h6 weakens the kingside. 1. Nf3 h6?! 2. g4!? e6 3. Bg2 d5/d6 4. h3 and White is fully ready to castle while Black has… nothing.
Now, the stats. If you’ll go check those stats, you’ll notice that the number of games with 2. c4 is about 500, and that the number of games with 2… d5 is about 6000. This is because Chess.com doesn’t show moves based on move orders, it shows them based on position. One could theoretically play 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. Ng1?? Ng8?? 3. Nf3 and Chess.com would likely still show tens of thousands of games, despite the fact that that set of moves has never been played before.
With that knowledge in mind, completely discount 2… d5 or 2… Nf6 as an option. Instead, might I direct your attention to 2… g6, with about an 1/8th of 2. c4’s games, and a rather pretty score for Black. Black will play for Bg7, Nf6, d6, Nbd7, 0-0, and e5. White will likely play for d4, Nc3, e4, Be2, 0-0, and Re1. Interestingly enough, after 9. Bf1 a5, we find ourselves in a Mainline Positional KID.
Now this isn’t very likely to happen, but even if other moves are played by White, this setup as Black is very very strong, and a lot of that is due to the fianchettoed bishop, connected knights, and incredibly solid central pawn structure. The only stuck piece is the LSB, and that can be remedied with Nc5 or Nb6.
I missed h6 in your list that was my bad.
Your idea leads to this position which I think is almost as bad, despite liking the KID in general.
I missed h6 in your list that was my bad.
Your idea leads to this position which I think is almost as bad, despite liking the KID in general.
You missed one very key move as Black. 7… 0-0 instead of 7… e5. For the sake of the line though, 7… 0-0 8. Be3 e5 9. d5 c5 10. Ne1 Kh8 11. Nd3 Ng8 12. Qd2 f5 and Black actually scores better here.
If black castles on move 7 white can simply change tactics:
In any of these cases black's position would be better if he hadn't done c6. which doesn't even support anything, and instead played a more helpful move. In fact the pawn on c6 is actually hurting black here, because it gets in the way of a good queenside fianchetto.
whats the problem with the spassky variation of the reti?
I get the names mixed up, but I believe that you're talking about the Polish Defense. Nothing's wrong with it but the Reti's stacked with great moves so it wound up low.
btw you can also play f5 against reti and have a kinda dutch defense type position and now you're just gonna play against a KIA. Dutch setup is just great against reti opening, and this is from past experiences of OTB tournaments. Also 1. Nf3 d5 is met with 2. c4, also known as the reti gambit. Not popular, but very successful. after that if your opponent doesn't know what to do and you know what to do (if you're white), then it's GG. Black lacks in development in such kind of positions. Just some extra informations, no need to debate on what I'm saying.
I get the names mixed up, but I believe that you're talking about the Polish Defense. Nothing's wrong with it but the Reti's stacked with great moves so it wound up low.
this is completely sound and is also my weapon of choice
It looks totally fine. Reti has many ways both sides can play and that is what makes it a fun opening.
F tier:
20: 1...e5
I'd say this is pretty self-explanatory. That's a free pawn, and a center one at that.
19: 1...g5
Also a free pawn, but I guess there is some slight compensation since black will get the center. Better than 1...e5, which is what I'd say is by far the worst, but still not good at all.
18: 1...f6
Terrible move. What is the plan with this, e5? There are far better ways to prepare that, which avoid weakening the king for absolutely no reason.
17: 1...Nh6
White gets the center, and your knight is now atrocious. Great job.
16: 1...Na6
Similar to 1...Nh6, but I prefer this slightly.
D tier (also known as "Basically Useless"):
15: 1...h5
Basically useless.
14: 1...h6
Basically useless.
13: 1...a5
Basically useless.
12: 1...a6
Basically useless.
C tier:
11: 1...b5
With a slightly different move order, b5 could be a great plan in this opening. The problem with it here is that white has 2.e4, which transposes into something that isn't too good for black.
B tier:
10: 1...f5
I don't like it as much against 1.Nf3, but I guess it isn't that bad.
9: 1...d6
I think this is actually significantly better against 1.Nf3 than it is against 1.e4 since white has already committed to Nf3 before f4. Not bad, but not my favorite.
8: 1...g6
Same as 1...d6 since they'll most likely transpose.
7: 1...b6
This isn't bad either.
A tier:
6: 1...Nc6
I had this at 4th, and after further consideration, knocked it down to 6th since going into a Chigorin isn't so great. But if white doesn't play 2.d4 and instead plays something like 2.c4 or 2.g3, black is doing great and will have chances to start a nice kingside attack.
5: 1...e6
It's just by preference that this is lower than 1...c6. Depending on what white goes into, I might regret blocking in the bishop in this case. But this is still a solid choice.
4: 1...c6
A pretty good choice. Not really much else I have to say about it lol
S tier:
3: 1...d5
Great move, very principled, just putting a pawn in the center. I had this originally in 2nd place, but I moved it one place down because I think the new 2nd place is much more flexible.
2: 1...Nf6
Very flexible. If white plays 2.c4, there are a few different good options, but I like 2...c5. If 2.g3, black can play several different moves that are good, but I think 2...b5 is pretty good. And if 2.d4, there are again a few different good moves, with my preference being 2...e6. Overall, a great and very flexible choice.
1: 1...c5
This is by far my favorite way to play against the Reti. Most players just transpose it into the English with 2.c4 (or sometimes 2.g3 and then 3.c4), which is one of the openings I'm most confident against. And of course, if 2.e4, you just have a normal Sicilian Defense, which is great.
Huh, I was editing my old comment with explanations for my rankings, don't know why they just made it into another comment...
If black castles on move 7 white can simply change tactics:
In any of these cases black's position would be better if he hadn't done c6. which doesn't even support anything, and instead played a more helpful move. In fact the pawn on c6 is actually hurting black here, because it gets in the way of a good queenside fianchetto.
9. Qc2 doesn’t really… do anything. 9… exd4 relieving the tension and Black suddenly has the better position, as there’s no more central pawn breaks for White like f4, d5, or c5.
Black has no good reason to fianchetto queenside in the KID, especially when the LSB has great squares on the kingside like e6, f5, and g4, doubly so in a line like this where White will soon be demolishing Black’s queenside, and triply so for the reason you mentioned, that b7 is currently a key piece holding Black’s defense together and moving it to b6 would create a plethora of targets and may just lose on the spot. However, even in a situation where c6 hasn’t been played, b6 still puts pressure on c7 and creates a hook for a2-a4-a5. Besides, double fianchettoing is almost never worth it. I can’t think of a single reputable opening in which either color fianchettoes both of their bishops. The only reason I could ever see Black keeping the LSB on the queenside is if for some reason Black was able to play d6 c5 a6 b5 uncontested.
Hi!
I think you made a very important point on your choice #3, which I would quote below:
"#3 Queenside Fianchetto Variation (b6)
...this would be my personal choice, though the top two are probably objectively better. This just leads to a very…my style like game."
For me, you should have ranked it #1. What I mean is that at some point, the choice of the response has to suit your play style, preferences and opening repertoire, so this kind of ranking is very personal. Of course I´m only talking about the main replies, not the weird ones like 1...g5 and the like.
In my ranking, either 1..d5 or 1...d6 would be at the top, depending on the opening I intended to play (Slav or Modern).
Good luck!
Are you Reti for my responses to Reti?
My previous rankings (Which will be mentioned a bit here):
White's first moves https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/i-ranked-all-20-first-moves-for-white
Black's e4 responses https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/i-ranked-all-20-responses-to-e4-for-black
Black's d4 responses https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/this-time-i-ranked-all-20-responses-to-d4-for-black
Reti, or Nf3, is super flexible for both sides. In fact this one has no tiers, because there are too many good - though not too many great - moves. These moves don’t transpose into each other often, but they do turn into other openings, so previous rankings will directly or indirectly be revisited here. Most options lead into decisive games that neither player needs to know much theory for.
#20 No name (Nh6):
Well, this is an imbalance, but it’s not the equal kind black wants. White’s knight is in the better spot. This has 2 games at master level, lost both games, and has the worst engine placement! (If I wasn’t factoring that in it would be at 19, but it’s the worst in all 3…)
#19 No name (Na6):
Another unequal imbalance. If white plays e4, his knight deters an eventual e5, refuting any plan of a reversed Sodium Attack. Any queenside fianchetto now becomes very passive and silly looking against white’s full center occupation, and knight support.
#18 No name (h5):
With the knight out, this pawn can’t even hurt white’s structure, especially after white eventually plays g3 or h3. You don’t get any compensation for ruining your kingside, and white decides on a same/opposite side castling game.
#17 Arctic Defense (f6):
You have successfully prevented white from moving his knight to e5 or g5, but I’m kinda unconvinced that it's worth preventing your knight from going to f6. After d4, e5 fails because white presses d5, and now neither of your knights can go to their natural squares.
#16 Ware Defense (a5):
The only thing this accomplishes is wrecking your queenside. And maybe you're threatening a pitiful queenside offense? Also the a pawn is important, it can prevent or kick away a minor piece from b5, which this now stops.
#15 Ross Gambit (e5):
Tempo for a center pawn… there aren’t even any aggressive follow-ups! There’s a better gambit achieving the same thing + more.
#14 St George Defense (a6):
Now is where we start the moves that are actually decent. By playing Nf3 white is trying to make you reveal your cards first despite going second, a6 stops that, in exchange for being down a full tempo. But there’s a better way of accomplishing the same thing.
#13 Slav Invitation (c6):
Seriously? You’re going for the Slav? Well Slav won’t accept your invitation. Instead white plays c4, e3, and Nc3, which has fatal statistics for black, who is basically playing for a draw. To me, this is the c4 version of Ruy Lopez or the Catalan; objectively solid except that black is more so playing for a draw.
#12 Basman Defense (h6):
A slightly better version of St George Defense, that also stops Ng5
#11 Polish Defense (b5):
Worst case scenario is a line that against d4 is best case scenario for black with this opening, trading your b pawn for white’s e pawn, or else annoying white's queenside knight. It’s decent, though I’d still take white personally.
#10 Herrstrom Gambit (g5):
This is by far the sharpest response.. Black’s plan after white captures is to play e5 attacking the knight. Following d4 (protecting the knight with the queen) you attack with the bishop and white must retreat (giving you a tempo), play h4 (messing up his kingside) or even sack by taking f7 (you’re up 2 pawns for a knight, but can’t castle). Black also wins more at master level, with just 21 games though. Maybe it’s a bit dubious, but if white played Reti he clearly doesn’t want a theory heavy game, which is what this forces, giving black a psychological advantage. It's good for timed games, (though this is based off classic) and is definitely worth a try.
#9 Queen’s Gambit Invitation (e6):
This and the next move were both ranked at 8 in their rankings, but this one lost the battle to maintain it. As long as you don’t allow the Catalan, you will always have decent positions, but white is more flexible than you, and decides which of many styles to play in.
#8 Sicilian Invitation (c5):
This move won the battle of the 8s. The person from Sicily will accept this invitation, and you all know how I feel about that (the opening of course)… At least here black is safe from the Wing gambit, but the Open Sicilian is nearly as bad. It’s more solid for white. Since this move has its own lines while e6 jumps to others, and it was in a list of higher quality moves it’s still the clear victor.
#7 Black Mustang Defense (Nc6):
Following d4 it becomes Chigorin Defense, which isn’t the worst position in the world for black since white has his knight on f3 instead of c3. Black should quickly equalize. Or else e4 turns it into Nimzowitsch Defense Declined, and I’m totally fine with that.
#6 Pirc Invitation (d6):
I don’t have any problems with a single position this leads to, in fact I quite like some of them. It just seems better to do this a bit later where it’s not letting white choose his setup knowing that you plan on a kingside fianchetto (otherwise why did you block in your bishop?) and having another 2 moves to prepare before it’s even done. d6 also supports a potential c5 and or e5 advance as well, pso it can lead into KID or Pirc and it is overall a very solid move. You also can now potentially pin white’s knight.
#5 Dutch Variation (f5):
This is where the greats start. Black sais “”I’ll get a stronger hold on e4 than you can get on e5, cause your knight blocks in your f pawn!” The result? Dutch Defense. The difference between the Dutch and the Sicilian is that Sicilian has sharp lines that are hard for black to play, while Dutch has sharp lines that are hard for both players.
#4 Kingside Fianchetto Variation (g6):
I ranked this move at 2 in both of the last rankings, but even though it’s still as good here as it was then, this set of moves is stacked to the point that this move wound up lower. Very flexible and transpositional.
#3 Queenside Fianchetto Variation (b6):
While this could just turn into a typical Owen’s/English Defense type of position (which is still a good option), a much sharper idea is to play advance c5 after fianchetto-ing the bishop on b7. Now white can’t immediately occupy either square, and black can continue to fight by potentially moving the knight to f6. It’s a very tactical game that doesn’t exactly require theory, but it is still very sharp with calcs for both sides. I think if I was playing some unusually important game for some reason, this would be my personal choice, though the top two are probably objectively better. This just leads to a very…my style like game.
#2 No name (d5)
Now back to revisiting. This is comparable to my ranking of white’s first moves, as this leads into the King's Indian Attack, where black basically gets white’s position in the KID (King’s Indian Defense) and his loss of tempo doesn’t matter, because in this position white has the position that fits black better, and black has the position that fits white better. In other words it’s still even. Of course this does allow Reti Gambit, but that’s also even, or maybe even better for black in the advance variation.
#1 No name (Nf6)
And this is the black version of (Anglo) Indian Game where both players have the more fitting side. Even if white tries to make it King's Indian Attack black can just switch to b6 and make the game become Marienbad System (a form of Indian Game), or else just copy until white plays d4 or c4. Basically it’s the move I ranked 1 for the responses to d4.
If I decide to continue this the next ranking will be the responses to English Opening. Feel free to say your opinions/rankings.