I say Kings Indian defence is better

Apples vs Oranges

But that one difference makes lightyears of a difference in the overall position, which is why I preach that players should not play openings with similar pawn structures for one side only.  The King's Indian Defense and Pirc have the same pawn structure for Black, but the position is not based on Black, it's based on Black and White!

You should play openings that have similar styles and overall pawn structures, not one player's pawn structure.

For example, in the King's Indian Defense, especially the Classical Variation, Mar Del Plata, the center is completely blocked by pawns.  The "Theory of Pawn Pointing" comes into play.  White's central pawns point towards the Queenside, Black's the Kingside, and hence White should attack Queenside and Black Kingside.

Which King pawn opening is the most similar to this?  Actually, it's NOT the Pirc.  It's the French!  Other than in the Exchange Variation, the center in the French is usually blocked as well, just like the King's Indian.  In this case, White's pawns point to the Kingside, and Black's the Queenside.  Therefore, in this case, White should attack Kingside, and Black should attack Queenside, but the general strategy is still the same.

This is just one of many prime examples of why saying that the Pirc and King's Indian, or French and QGD, or Caro-Kann and Slav, are "similar" is actually a complete mis-statement.

You want similar strategies and you play the King's Indian against 1.d4?  You should play the French against 1.e4!  Pirc Strategy is NOTHING like King's Indian Strategy!

Yeah I agree there is no pawn on c4 in the Pirc Defense

You can pin-point exceptions all you want, but if your goal as Black is to play "Similar openings", you wouldn't play the Rubinstein voluntarily, and so again, if your goal is to get similar pawn structures with similar ideas as Black, and you are a King's Indian player, the French is the answer, where the only thing White can do to get a vastly different type of structure is via Exchange Lines, whether it be the straight up Exchange, Exchange Winawer (4.exd5), Exchange MacCutcheon (5.exd5), etc.

The Pirc won't achieve you that similarity you are looking for with the King's Indian

FofS - If you are going to try to do that, Black isn't committed to a King's Indian, and so you have to be able to deal with other responses, like 3...e5 or 3...Nbd7 and 4...e5.

The former is an improved version of the 3...e5 variation of the Old Indian as White usually wants a Knight on f3 in those lines, not a Pawn, and the latter is a direct transposition to the Saemish-type lines of the Old Indian, so don't think you're always going to get a King's Indian.

There are also ideas with an early ...c6 and not fianchettoing.

Maybe off-topic but a good combination is playing the Modern and the KID. After 1 d4 g6 when White plays 2 e4 you'll have a Modern and if White continues with 2 c4 you can play Bg7-d6-Nf6-0-0 for KID. If you delay developing your Knight to f6 you will avoid the Trompowsky and the Torre Attack (but not the Smyslov Variation of the KID). So if you prefer the Modern over those two then that's a good solution, I do that myself too.

Well, since we were talking Pirc in this thread, it would be assumed that Black played 2...Nf6, not 2...g6.

As for the dxe5 and Qxd8 lines, assessment depends.

In the case of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 e5 4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8 Kxd8, White has no better than equality at best, especially given that the Knight belongs on f3, not the pawn.

In the case of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5 3.dxe5 dxe5, White might have a miniscule advantage.

In the case of 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5?! dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8, Black is actually slightly better.  The pawn on c4 is actually a problem for White.  Black scores roughly 52 to 53% in what is called the "No Name Defense", and it goes up when White exchanges pawns and queens.

First off, your line is not a Pirc, it's a Modern.  The Pirc is 2...Nf6.  The line you gave is part of the "Averbakh" variation of the Modern Defense.

The only way to get a Saemisch Structure against the Pirc is 3.f3, which isn't very good, and in the case of the Modern, which is what you demonstrate, the Knight hasn't committed to go to f6, so you are not in a Saemisch KID proper.

The difference between a Pirc and a Modern is that in the latter the Knight delays coming to f6.

FOS if you like the Saemisch have you tryed the 150 Attack?

Your set up is not 100% like the Saemisch.

However, I do think it is one of the lines which follow's the spirit of the Saemisch the most.

Your understanding is incorrect

1...d6 can lead to a number of different defenses.  1...d6 doesn't constitute a Pirc.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3 Qa5 is the Pribyl

1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 a6 (or 4...c6) is the Modern Defense

The difference between the Pirc and the Modern is the Knight on f6.

The difference between the Pirc and the Pribyl is the Fianchettoing of the King's Bishop.

Once you have played 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6, or some other move order involving this, like 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Nf6, you are in a Pirc.

So clearly by your definition, 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 is a Pirc but 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 is a Modern?  That's Hilarious!  No wonder you are 1700 with only 20 or so games and too scared, or ADHD, or something that is keeping you from playing in its purest form, over the board!

And in some cases, it never goes to f6.  While many times it comes to f6 way later in the game, like in the early teens, in other cases, it goes to h6 or e7.

That's not true either!

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6, white can still get in c3 or c4 by playing 3.Be3, an amateur sideline that isn't very good, but works out fine if Black doesn't truly know the Pirc and just knows opening moves, and goes ahead and plays 3...g6.  3...e5! is far stronger here.  Now the c-pawn can go to c3 or c4 at some point, but Black has already equalized at minimum.

Lets all get Nerdy and throw in the Modern defense into the mix!

Pirc vs the Kings Indian defence vs Modern defence

If Black is a King's Indian player, then after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 does he have to allow transposition to the Pirc, or play d5 at some point to avoid the Pirc? Or can he avoid the Pirc in some other way?

Jengaias showed a few examples of what happens after the above move order.

However, I do want to mention 1 thing which I think Jengaias left out.

The move 2...d6 doesn't necessary have to be a transposition into the "Pirc".

Believe it or not black does have a chance of transposing into a "Philidor Defense"

Of course white has to allow it. There are a few moves which could cause it to go to an end game.

The end game position is considered fine for black. However, it can be dry and life less at times.

Thanks for the helpful responses.  The most useful is jengais pointing out that after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 Black can play 2. ... e6, and White has nothing better than 3. e4 d5 transposing to a French. I am a bit embarrassed not to have figured it out for myself, especially as the Classical French is already my usual defence to 1. e4 

Yes, but why should black play 2...e6?

Black could respond with 2...d5.

The lines which arrise out of 2...d5 are not as appealing to white compared to the lines which arrise out of the Classical French.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5

White only has 3 main options I believe.

• The Veresov

• The line which is I believe named after Jobava 3.Bf4

• The Black Diemer Gambit 3.e4

None of those lines really should cause black any real problems.