Playing against the dutch defense

Hey everyone, i need some help. Im playing a game in a couple days and i know my opponent plays the dutch against 1.d4. Against 1...f5 i play a setup involving 2.Nc3 and 3.Bg5. I need suggestions on what to play against the move order1...e6 and 2...f5. I dont want to go down the main line into any leningrad or stonewall but also dont want to play any unsound gambits. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!!!:)

Black is crushed.

White is playing a Kings Fianchetteo Variation/Catalan type of position. It is a complete slaugther.

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/kings-fianchetteo-variation

Leningrad Dutch, Classical Dutch, or Stonewall Dutch.

If it has the word Dutch in it. Than the line sucks.

You beat them every time same line. Its crushing. Domination!

X_PLAYER_J_X is full of sh*t - Black is fine.

The downside of post 2 is the White must be willing to play the French Defense in that case - After 1.d4 e6 2.Nc3 d5, all moves for White are basically bad except 3.e4, and now you are in a French Defense.

Your best bet is to learn the Classical and Stonewall (you avoid the Leningrad at least), but when it comes to the Stonewall, you'll beat them with this line!

Speaking as a Dutch player myself, After 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2, there are many players as Black that will play 4...d5, and here that is a mistake.

Black should play 4...c6 here if he's a Stonewall Player.  A Classical player can proceed as normal.

Against 4...d5, White gets a significant advantage playing 5.Nh3!  With e5 already weakened, the f4-post is excellent for White.  Also, if Black plays both Bd6 and c6, Bf4! is now killer as taking on d6 forces a recapture with the Queen, not the pawn, keeping e5 weak, and if he takes you, you take back with the Knight, not wrecking the pawn structure.

Against 4...c6, play another waiting move like 5.Qc2 or 5.Nc3, and when Black then plays 5...d5 as he can't wait any longer, you can go into the Nh3 ideas.  These are not quite as bad for Black as the other move order, but they are still annoying.

Against the Classical, go main lines.  That narrows your learning curve from 3 theoretical main lines to 1 theoretical main line and a sideline against the Stonewall.  Leningrad eliminated.

Really you are going to go there. When the line I showed as a crushing score.

You can not be for real.

I can't even hear your insult over the sound of a 39.3% win ratio for white with a 42.9% drawing ratio.

While black only has a 17.9% chance of winning.

In a database of 2200+ players and above.

White has a combine score of 82.2% crushing odds.

White is + over =

Your move order doesn't even stop Nh3 it just delays the inevitable. An inferior position with a hole a mile wide. A semi-truck could drive through it.

First off, you don't even know how to calculate scoring percentage.

You only get half of the draw ratio.  If White scores 40% wins, 40% draws, and 20% losses against a specific opening, that's NOT an 80% score, that's a 60% score.  Total points scored divided by total games.  So 40 wins is 40 points.  40 draws is 20 points.  20 losses is 0 points.  40 + 40 + 20 is 100 games.  60 Points out of 100 games is 60%

Now, I have no idea what database you are looking at, but the one I'm looking at, your position shows as 40.6% win ratio for White, 37.4% draw ratio, and 22% win ratio for Black.  That's 59.3% for White, not 82.2% like you claim!

Secondly, let's take that line further:  I personally advocate the Stonewall, not the Classical, unless White commits to something like an early Nh3.  That said, 4...d5 here is a mistake and 4...c6! is the correct move.  Now if 5.Nf3, then 5...d5 while if 5.Nh3, then 5...d6!   If White plays a waiting move like Qc2 or Nc3, committing the Queenside, then 5...d5 is also fine for Black, and if 6.Nh3 and 7.Bf4, Black will retreat the Bishop to e7.

So now let's look at 4...c6 and WALLAH! - Black's score improves!

Across 851 games, White scores 32.5%, Black scores 25.3%, and 42.2% draw ratio.  Now you are looking at a 53.6% score for White, which is right around the norm of 54%.

Now, let's proceed with what claims to be White's best score, 5.Nd2 (5.Nf3 d5 transposes back to the main line where again Black scores fine, 5.Nh3 d6 scores fine for Black, and other moves are weaker).  After 5.Nd2 d5 6.Nh3 (scores the highest of White's options) Bd6, the highest scoring move for White, played 72 times, is 7.O-O

But after 7.O-O, Black castles 7...O-O, and White has no good moves.  After the highest scoring 8.Qc2, the moves 8...Qe7 and 8...h6 score really well for Black!

Oh, and against the immediate 5.Nh3?!, 5...d6 scores sub-50% for White, 25.4% wins, 47.8% draws, 26.9% losses for White across 67 games!

I should also add that depending on the line, each of those percentages are with White's Average rating being either in the 2400s or low 2500s!  We ain't talking 1800 weasels!

Try again buster!

And how about this X_Player_J_X - if you are so sure of yourself that you can score 82.2% as White in that position, and I'm telling you I can score 46%, how about you move to Charlotte, NC from wherever in the United States you are, and you and I face in a 14 game match, one every Tuesday night for 14 weeks, Time Control G/75, Inc/15 (standard time control used at the club), and since you claim you can score 82.2% and I claim 46%, I'll take Black all 14 games starting with the position after 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 c6!, and if you score 11.5 or better (82%), I'll pay you $1000.  If I score 6.5 or better (46.4%), you pay me $1000.  If the score is anywhere from 11-3 White to 8-6 White (meaning you don't score 82% and I don't score 46%), it's a push, nobody gets paid!

So what ya gonna do?  Put up?  Or shut up?

39.3% win ratio for white/ 42.9% drawing ratio/ 17.9% win ratio for black

In the above post my text is not saving for some reason. WTF This is weird my text is disappearing

39.3% win ratio for white/ 42.9% drawing ratio/ 17.9% win ratio for black

Even after your 5.Qc2 -

5...d5 6.Nh3 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.Bf4 Be7! - White still only scores 56.9%, and if you go with games that are theoretically relevant (last 5 years, 2010 to now), you have 8 wins for White, 7 wins for Black, 12 draws, that's a Whopping 51.8% for White!

NEXT?

Basic terminology failure. 39.3 + 42.9 = 82.2. So the odds of White wining or drawing when expressed as a percentage are 82.2%. The odds of Black winning or drawing are 42.9 + 17.3 = 60.2%. This adds up to 142.4%, but if you have a problem with this, you don't understand what is going on.

Now if you use scoring percent you get 39.3 + (42.9/2) = 60.75% for White and 17.9 + (42.9/2) = 39.35%. 60.75% + 39.35% = 100.1% So ThrillerFan's methodology gives you a percent of the total points available. (39.3+42.9+17.9 = 100.1, so the rounding error is not mine).

No, I am not a school teacher.

By the way, this isn't "my" methodology, this is just the facts of how you determine win percentage.

Take the NFL - The New York Giants in 1997 won their division with a record of 10 wins, 5 losses, and 1 tie.  Their win percentage was .656 (10.5/16), NOT .625 - what it would be if they went 10 and 6, nor .688 - what it would be if they went 11 and 5.

They didn't do either one.  They had a tie against the Redskins that November.  A tie is a half a point.  Chess just calls it a draw rather than a tie, but the same thing no matter how you look at it!

5...d5 6.Nh3 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.Bf4 Be7!

Even if we was to use the line you are giving.

Your bishop has moved twice.

An after the move 9.Nd2

White still has + over =

LOL It makes no sense really. People are debating against this line when this line is the Classical Variation.

Dutch Defense/Classical Variation

ECO code A90  1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2

It is a straight transposition into the Classical Variation. It is like a main line.

If you know your opponent plays the Dutch, the best way for your opponent to do that would be 1. d4 f5. Your opponent is not playing precisely if after 1. d4 he plays e6?!, as a lot of people will play 2. e4 and that is a French. (why don't you do that I wonder?)

After 1. d4 f5, I usually go for a slow setup with 2. g3, and play continues in strategic fashion. Your idea Nc3 and Bg5 is a Dutch avoidance line in my book, in that black doesn't get in a Dutch setup comfortably. The score favors white in your line, but practically speaking I think play is about equal as white traded bishop for knight and a slightly weakened strucutre.

I don't know where X_Player gets his stats but according to the chesstempo.com database on games rated 2200+, for his line:

4. Bg2  40.6%/37.4%/22%

And if the search is only on games rated 2700+, black has an advantage playing the Dutch:

1. f5 25.8%/45.2%/29%

Magnus Carlsen played it a few times with a decent score (He beat Anand in the line X_Player mentioned as black and draw with Aronian using the Dutch. He lost against Morozevich in 2012. EIther way if Magnus plays it in serious tournaments once in a while that would be more than enough to convince me an opening is okay).

Do you play the Dutch against 1c4 and if so how do you approach lines where white holds back on his d pawn, playing d3 ?

Sigh not this again. A lot of 1.d4 player's not keen on playing 1.d4 e6 2e4 because think going into terriority more familar to opponent.  Club player's don't have time to prepare everything, and maybe if prepared to play against the french would play 1.e4 to get what prepared more often. 

Saying that for the OP's rep, learning some non critical french line might be the least work

I believe the Dutch is used more as a surpise weapon.

I have not seen many high level players play this line on a regular bases.

If there are SGM's who play this regularly as there main response to 1.d4 I am more than willing to retract my statement.

However, I have not seen many of them play it. Usually they play these type of lines once in a blue moon or against lower level players.

Wrathsss statement says the following.

I don't know where X_Player gets his stats but according to the chesstempo.com database on games rated 2200+, for his line:

4. Bg2  40.6%/37.4%/22%

Which shows white score is better.

However, In truth the issue here is not about whether or not the Dutch is playable. High level players have played the Dutch. So it has been played.

The fact is The OP wants to play a line against the Dutch. Which line against the Dutch scores respectable I believe is the real issue.

I suggested the Dutch Defense/Classical Variation

ECO code A90  1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2

If the OP wished to avoid the Dutch completely. He could play the lines. He already mentioned against 1...f5

and if 1...e6 he can continue with 2.e4 going into a French Defense type of position which was suggested already by Wrathsss.

However, If he doesn't have a line that he believes is very well against the French. Than he has to go into other alternatives in which case my suggest seems perfectly applicable.

Lastly, The OP said the following

I dont want to go down the main line into any leningrad or stonewall but also dont want to play any unsound gambits. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!!!:)

He doesn't want unsound gambits, He doesn't want to avoid the Dutch, and He doesn't want to play the main line.

I believe he is asking for to much. What is so wrong with the main line. There is nothing wrong with the Classical Variation.

Did you miss that these stats are better for Black? Scoring percent for White is 40.6 + (37.4/2) = 59.2% instead of 39.3 + (42.9/2) = 60.75. I trust you remember that White's wining percentage plus Black's winning percentage equals 100%.

I have to put this in the form of a question because the phrase "which shows white score is better" does not specify better then what, it is also missing a possessive.