raiding an early castle

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StrobeLightEpileptic

I've read posts in the past asking how a person can attack an early castle.  So, I just offer this game as an ideal example of how you can do that.

In this game White is the early castler. There is a lot that can go wrong with this strategy, but most times you can get an early warning if the other player has caught on or has just decided not to pursue an early castle.

common0324

come on now, at least make decent moves

StrobeLightEpileptic

Well, the one I posted was an actual game. I posted it because it was "ideal".   Usually the other player doesn't play into my hand so readily.

pentiumjs

Hi StrobeLightEpileptic--that's a good point and there are certainly examples of what you're saying.  Although this is more a situation where the castling itself was safe and white followed up with some poorly timed blunders.  Playing 4. d3 and then 7. d4 wasted time, while the danger of 8...Bh3 definitely required 8. Kh1 as a defense.  After that move though, white is fairly safe with the threat of winning a pawn by dxe5 dxe5 Nxe5.  Black didn't really have much of an attack going besides the pin on the g2 pawn and white failed to pay enough attention to it.  After a better move like Kh1 as suggested though, he could've completed his development with options like Be3, Qe2, Rad1, Rfe1, etc. and likely forced his opponent to castle as well.  Just bad timing and some blindness on the defender's part here.

common0324

went ahead and edited in a nice little ideal line, where black makes a seemingly harmless move, but due to the early move of the Queen, and King still in the center of the board, black gets torn apart.

StrobeLightEpileptic

Actually White had a very good move that would have prevented checkmate here in the last move.

But, I've played this strategy a lot and very few people see this move.

 
StrobeLightEpileptic

Well, I originally posted this as an example of one way to oppose an early castle.  I had found posts on this forum of players inquiring about that and posted it for their benefit.  I would assume that anyone who had to make such an inquiry would not be very advanced themselves.

I also state in the original post that a lot can go wrong with this strategy.

Here is a game I just recently played with a an opponent who had a ranking of 1452, ( after this loss).  I don't know how high a ranking you believe someone would have to have to be considered sophisticated enough, but I have beat players with rankings over 1500 when I opened with this strategy or some variation of it. (Although I admit I haven't beaten many over 1500).

In this game my opponent recognized what I was up to and so the game evolved into a very different sort of play.  But this is more typical of what goes on in this opening than the original game I posted.

Of course, I am black.

mjh1991

You're leaving your king in the center of the board and neglecting development.  I think with careful, accurate play you are the one who will be punished.  

johnyoudell

Here is a nice game in which white demolishes black's castled position.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1316498

StrobeLightEpileptic
harryz wrote:

Would you like to play a game? I can show how this strategy fails terribly on higher levels

The problem with that is that you know in advance how I'm going to play. There is absolutely no element of surprise that this game entails.

clunney

Horrible play... Just horrible.  It hurts my eyes!  Why would you play a bunch of worthless pawn moves in the opening and then move your queen randomly?  Against any reasonably skilled player, you can expect to lose quickly and spectacularly...

You're supposed to castle as early as possible in almost all cases, leaving your king in the center ensures your opponent of tactical chances for the knockout.  Just because your opponent decided to hang his h-pawn and then his king does not mean castling early is a bad thing.  If anything, White is outright winning in that game if he plays 8. Re1 or Kh1 (even after wasting a tempo playing d4 in two moves).

StrobeLightEpileptic
mjh1991 wrote:

You're leaving your king in the center of the board and neglecting development.  I think with careful, accurate play you are the one who will be punished.  

I understand that.  And that is one of the big disadvantages.  And, although I have easily been able to castle as I play this game, I prefer not to.

For instance: If I have the game developed to the point where the Queen is at g6 and things begin to go awry then what I can do is get my bishop to f6 and then my knight to e7 which allows me to castle.

But, many times when the game has been challenged I prefer use the king's rook along the h column because it is a powerful attack.

But, yes, leaving the king in the center is a weakness.

StrobeLightEpileptic
johnyoudell wrote:

Here is a nice game in which white demolishes black's castled position.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1316498

That's quite a game. I'd really have to look at that because there is some awfully complicated choices.

StrobeLightEpileptic
clunney wrote:

Horrible play... Just horrible.  It hurts my eyes!  Why would you play a bunch of worthless pawn moves in the opening and then move your queen randomly?  Against any reasonably skilled player, you can expect to lose quickly and spectacularly...

You're supposed to castle as early as possible in all cases, leaving your king in the center ensures your opponent of tactical chances for the knockout.  Just because your opponent decided to hang his h-pawn and then his king does not mean castling early is a bad thing.  If anything, White is outright winning in that game if he plays 8. Re1 or Kh1 (even after wasting a tempo playing d4 in two moves).

Hi there.  I have disagree that the pawn moves are worthless, likewise the Queen's move is far from random.

As to the 8 moves you bring up, I have confronted both of those situations and I still think my game has a 50/50 chance of winning.

clunney
johnyoudell wrote:

Here is a nice game in which white demolishes black's castled position.

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1316498

If black plays Kg8 instead of Kg6?? he has at least a draw (maybe a win, based on what I read in Sacking the Citadel).  But the double sac is nice.  Too bad nobody plays the Colle System anymore nowadays.

clunney
StrobeLightEpileptic wrote:
clunney wrote:

Horrible play... Just horrible.  It hurts my eyes!  Why would you play a bunch of worthless pawn moves in the opening and then move your queen randomly?  Against any reasonably skilled player, you can expect to lose quickly and spectacularly...

You're supposed to castle as early as possible in all cases, leaving your king in the center ensures your opponent of tactical chances for the knockout.  Just because your opponent decided to hang his h-pawn and then his king does not mean castling early is a bad thing.  If anything, White is outright winning in that game if he plays 8. Re1 or Kh1 (even after wasting a tempo playing d4 in two moves).

Hi there.  I have disagree that the pawn moves are worthless, likewise the Queen's move is far from random.

As to the 8 moves you bring up, I have confronted both of those situations and I still think my game has a 50/50 chance of winning.

If White hadn't played d3, I think he is outright winning.  Wasting a tempo with d2-d3-d4 was ridiculous, but not too surprising, white couldn't possibly have been very highly-rated, considering the e4 Nf3 Bc4 d3 set-up is really popular only up to around the 1200 level (and the fact that he played 8. h3?? and 9. Kh1???? shows poor chess skill, to say the least...). 

Artch
clunney wrote:

You're supposed to castle as early as possible in all cases, leaving your king in the center ensures your opponent of tactical chances for the knockout. 

This may be the worst advice I've ever seen on this site, and given with such assurance and gusto.  Huh.

mjh1991

You say you like pushing the attack, and didn't like the idea of playing a stronger player who wished to refute your idea over the board.  Also how will you push the h-rook if I don't let you open the h-file. The problem is the lines you've shown have a big tell.  Your queen is developed pre-maturely.  In such situations, facing you I'm going to develop sensibly and try and trade off your attacking pieces.  If I succeed you have nothing to show for your lack of development and king safety (my position is also likely much more solid).  In all your examples there are a bunch of poor pawn moves from both sides.  You get a quick attack yes, but it's parryable and once parried you are inferior.  Your wins owe solely to your opponents wasting time with poor moves.  You show a useful tactical motif, but you're trying to play it too early in the game.

Gambitcity

Bad Lip Reading http://youtu.be/0ED-20ygG74

mjh1991

@Artch  How is castling early in all cases bad advice.  Very rarely is castling early a bad idea.  And in the lines you need to delay or avoid castling, you shouldn't be playing them if the merits of castling are news to you.  King safety is a key element of any plan attack or otherwise.  All the greatest players attacking or otherwise will promptly see to their king safety, and see an uncastled king as a motivation for an attack.  In one of Tal's books he writes an entire chapter, on punishing delayed castling and keeping the king in the center with sacrifices.  Why is it good to give for free something that an opponent would sacrifice for.