I just looked up cozio, looks interesting.
Ive been getting into schliemann, its much simpler than ruy lopez and usually leads to an interesting game. Heres one variation:
Ruy Lopez - what to play as Black?
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Ideally I'd like something that won't require too much theory and that will help me to improve my opening/positional play.
Berlin defence is one of the most positional variations there is. Theory is not as important as understanding the position. The only thing you need is the book "the berlin wall" by John Cox that explains the ideas without giving variations
The Cox book on The Berlin Wall is very thorough.
This variation, Morphy, is easy and solid to play. You can choose to put your bishop on e7 or c5 dependent on your liking. I play it too sometimes and with great success. Plus you can often get it on the board because a6 Ba4 Nf6 0-0 is by far the main line. You just need to learn how to respond to a6 Bxc6 and maybe one or two other White moves then the 0-0.
Hey, thanks for all the helpful replies, it's given me quite a bit to think about.
The Berlin Wall looks interesting and it's obviously pretty fashionable at the moment. Plus, I like endgames and I feel like I'm relatively stronger there than in the opening and middlegame. Although, another consideration is what aspects of my game I want to work on improving (vs maximizing performance), and I think it might be more beneficial for me to get more practice with the positional variations with Queens still on the board, i.e. the Closed Main Line variations.
Also, I wonder if the Berlin is a bit too drawish? Does it give Black good chances to play for a win? I like that quote from Fisher where someone asked him what his secret was, and he said that he always played to win from the very first move, with both White and Black. What did he play against the Ruy? Or did he usually go with the Sicilian vs 1.e4?
Oct 22, 2014
0
#9
therearenonamesleft wrote:
The Cozio is quite playable and has less theory than most defenses to the Spanish. Aronian played it sometimes.
The Classical has some concrete lines to learn regarding the fork trick, and these lines are different depending on slight differences in the position/move order. e.g. if Bc5 is played and Nf6 has not been played yet etc.
Perhaps the Moller variation (3...a6, Nf6, Bc5) is worth investigating.
i have no idea what the cozio is. the hungarian defense 3...ne7 is a bit interesting. also the steinitz deferred defense is interesting ... lines with ...a6 and ...d6 (sometimes delaying Nf6... gives u the option of ...f5 sometimes). the positions with an early ...bc5 are fun to study. also positions with an early ...g6 are a bit more playable than people realize. every system has it's plusses and minuses. the richest systems are the breyer (9...Nb8) and chigorin (9...Na5) IMO. ok, occasionally u have to deal with stuff like the exchange variation, but that's life. the berlin is interesting too if u do not mind the endgame. of mentioned, i think the steinitz is the most underestimated as a solid weapon with the most correct move orders.
the cozio is a name for 3..Nge7. i actually had never heard of the name "hungarian" for it, that's how life goes i guess :p
The Ruy Lopez has been around almost as long as Chess but has been popular & subject to extensive analysis for the last 150 years. I started with it because it is very good for learning opening principles but eventually I switched to the Sicilian (usually the Dragon) to avoid all my opponents preprepared lines. So to me the question is, do I want to prepare for an opening with so many lines & variations all analysed out to about 20 moves or avoid it by playing something else. I chose to switch to the Sicilian & have never looked back.
BlackChrysler57 wrote:
I gave up The Dragon Sicilian years ago, mainly because Black has to figure out his Queenside Attack, while White runs on Auto-Pilot in the Yugoslav Attack. White doesn't even have to think. Fischer was right about that line and he said pretty much the same thing.
Yeah, the Dragon has its limitations but at lower levels it can still be very effective. Fischer used the Najdorf with great success. I guess it depends on what level you are playing at, if you are at 1200 & your opponent is roughly the same he won't have the skills to take advantage like Fischer or Karpov
The Najdorf is incredibly technical at high levels & thats what Fischer probably liked about it, but openings are a different thing at lower levels. At lot of ppl judge an opening by how the GM's play it, a good example is the Stonewall Attack, I had good success with it at lower club level but I wouldn't even consider it at levels over 1600. Its something that seems to be overlooked at lower levels, what may be a disaster in GM level chess can still be very effective for a lower rated player.
Also, I wonder if the Berlin is a bit too drawish? Does it give Black good chances to play for a win?
The berlin defence is a very complex exchange of positional ideas. Pawn majorities, good bishops bad bischops. Very important what to exchange and what keep on the board. In the end each side has his or her own pro's and cons leading to positionally unbalanced positions.
Most GM's know how to draw with white against the Berlin because they know the plans black has. Normal white players at our level dont. That is the exactly why the Berlin Wall book is so good. It does not explain variations but plans. What pieces to keep and what to exchange.
Personally (between 2000-2100 rating) i scored in the last 2 years +7 =2 -1 in the berlin. The loss was against an FM but i was actually better till i blundered in time trouble in the endgame.
Time4tea if endgame is your strength than you should consider Rat Defense A.K.A maroczy defense, countering either 1.e4 or 1.d4 with 1.d6 and then 2.e5. This often leads straight to the endgame.
Oct 23, 2014
0
#16
Not really sure I'd agree that Black has an advantage in the first scenario, (he might have equalised) although for sure, it's not the most enterprising line that White can choose. The Berlin is an excellent opening although it's not to everyone's cup of tea (no pun intended) and it's another strategically subtle line - much more so even than the open variation.
I think most blitz players would continue 3.dxe5, its hard to resist ruining your opponents castle ability. If dxe5, according to the master database on game explorer, in 78 master games black won 20.5% white won 33.3% and 46.2% (!) were drawn. Of course masters tend to draw more often than us amateurs...
If white decides to transpose to philidor, you can play the philidor countergambit with f5 getting a solid structure for black, although if white knows perfect theory for the philidor countergambit (which is rare), black is in trouble.
QueenTakesKnightOOPS wrote:
The Ruy Lopez has been around almost as long as Chess but has been popular & subject to extensive analysis for the last 150 years. I started with it because it is very good for learning opening principles but eventually I switched to the Sicilian (usually the Dragon) to avoid all my opponents preprepared lines. So to me the question is, do I want to prepare for an opening with so many lines & variations all analysed out to about 20 moves or avoid it by playing something else. I chose to switch to the Sicilian & have never looked back.
Interesting that you say that, because I thought the Sicilian was supposed to be more theory heavy than 1.e4 e5. I tried switching to the Najdorf a while back and I played some games over the course of a few weeks, but I went back to 1..e5 when I realized how much theory there was to learn and how badly things can go wrong if you screw up!
I've been thinking about the Berlin some more, but I don't think it's for me at the moment. Even though I feel I'm stronger at endgames, I'm not sure I like the idea of trading queens immediately into a very even endgame (so this probably goes for the Rat Defence that lasagnaa mentions above as well, but thanks for the suggestion). I prefer to 'work' my opponent a bit more in the middlegame first and try to create some imbalances or weaknesses, which I can then exploit in the endgame.
Then there's also the very high level of strategic subtlety of the Berlin endgame, which JamesColeman mentioned. I think it might be better for developing my positional skills if I'm playing positions where the strategy is a bit clearer, so i have a better chance of finding the right plan. Also, I'm not so much trying to maximize my performance right now, as trying to find a variation that will help me learn the most and develop my game. So, I think I'd rather be practicing and improving at middlegames with Queens on the board, rather than skipping over it to the endgame and practicing something that I'm already (relatively) decent at.
So, I'm leaning towards playing down the Closed Main Line and maybe aiming for the Breyer Variation. Out of the Closed Main Line variations, which ones would be best recommended for an amateur and would give Black fair chances to win?
Ok, so this question has probably been asked a hundred times, but what Black responses are most recommended for amateurs vs the Ruy Lopez?
Up until now I've been playing the Open, which is interesting and seems good for surprising White RL players; however it seems to lead to quite strategically subtle positions and I find that often I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing.
So, I'd like to try something different, but there are so many options for Black that I'm a bit stumped as to what to go for. Options I'm considering are Breyer, Zaitsev, Cozio, Classical and Schliemann. Does anyone know which of these are most recommended for an Amateur?
Ideally I'd like something that won't require too much theory and that will help me to improve my opening/positional play.