Ruy Lopez best for White?
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Mar 17, 2011
0
#82
Fezzik wrote:
I definitely don't recommend the Breyer to anyone below FM level. And the players who are FM and above know well enough not to rely on it regularly!
Having said that, it does have an interesting pedigree and positional basis.
Ziryab responds: Nonsense. It's never too soon to learn positional play and tactics. Indeed, players should start there.
(sorry for the paragraph failure--the iPad app needs some work)
Mar 17, 2011
0
#83
Can you pinpoint why the Breyer is suspect, and make a recommendation as to what should be played instead for class players, Fezzik?
Fezzik, I am sorry, you can't pronounce a major variation of a major opening to be some kind of extravagancy. It just isn't, it's a solid and even slightly conservative choice. We don't consider the Sicilian Sveshnikov to be bad because the Najdorf is a bit more popular. Bullocks.
Mar 17, 2011
0
#85
I see Kamsky playing it a lot in my database, along with a notable number of games by Mamedyarov, a huge number by Sasikiran, some by Short, Socko, Sokolov... (all of these are minimum 2600)
Mar 17, 2011
0
#86
It obviously isn't busted, so even assuming it's suspect at higher levels, which I don't think we've concluded, why would you not recommend it to lower level players? Would you recommend the Zaitzev? Chigorin? What would make you pick one of these over another?
Mar 17, 2011
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#87
Assuming the Marshall Gambit is the same thing that I've heard called the Marshall Attack, white can pretty much prevent that (and frequently does)...do you have a variation to play in the closed ruy after white prevents the Marshall? Or are you talking about something other than black sacrificing a pawn with ..d5 instead of ..d6?
Not trying to be difficult, or even tell you you're wrong, but just make sure we're on the same page, and try to see why you're saying what you're saying so I can come up with my own independent evaluation.
Mar 17, 2011
0
#89
No one below an FM should play the Ruy Lopez - Closed - Breyer Defense? Why?
I've played chess with both Class A and Expert players. They are really strong, with tons of chess experience. I doubt that the Ruy Lopez - Closed Variation is too hard for them to understand.
1. In just the short bit of reading I've done in my new FCO - Fundamental Chess Openings book, it's not hard to understand the basic ideas behind the moves in the Breyer.
2. When I do start playing the Ruy Lopez with others at my rating, how can I possibly get into too much trouble? The position that arises after 9...Nb8 is rock solid for both sides. It still will boil down to outplaying my opponent of equal skill through both positional play and tactics. I won't be playing against a GM.
This opening is amazingly instructive, and fun. I've dusted off another book - The Amatuer's Mind by Jeremy Silman to better see the imbalances in the position first - before any calculation - and then come up with a plan. Silman teaches guys just starting out how to develop a plan, which makes chess more enjoyable.
I have the entire next week off due to Spring Break. That will give me the time to go through all 5 parts of Grand Master Ronen Har-Zvi's video lectures on the Breyer over at ICC. I'll be the chess.com expert on this opening in a week. ;)
My thoughts for tonight. Excellent contributions by all. Thank you. 
I leave you with a small taste of the FCO. If you don't have a book on chess openings, buy this one. It's awesome.
"The question remains of course whether 9...Nb8 does not cause more problems than it solves, but this does not appear to be the case. 10.d4 Nbd7 11.Nbd2 Bb7 (D).
The first positive effects of 9...Nb8 make themselves felt. To begin with, 12. d5 does not make much sense in this position, since 12...c6 (or 12...Nc5 13.Bc2 c6) forces White to exchange pawns on c6, when Black's pieces are very actively posted. Another strong point of Black's opening scheme is that the much-desired manoeuvre Nf1-g3 is not so easy to carry out, because e4 has to be protected...12.Bc2...The paradox of White being forced to play Bc2 without being prompted by ...Na5 reveals the hidden strength of the Breyer Defence."
- Grandmaster Paul van der Sterren
Mar 17, 2011
0
#90
Fezzik wrote:
Lucidish_Lux wrote:
Assuming the Marshall Gambit is the same thing that I've heard called the Marshall Attack, white can pretty much prevent that (and frequently does)...do you have a variation to play in the closed ruy after white prevents the Marshall? Or are you talking about something other than black sacrificing a pawn with ..d5 instead of ..d6?
Ummm... sacrificing a pawn in the opening for development is usually called... a gambit. Just to continue being pedantic for a moment, I can't think of a single opening by Black that is correctly called an "attack". So yes, we are talking about the same opening.
Which anti-Marshall line are you discussing that forces Black into one of the other Closed Spanish lines?
O.K. I'll be a bit pedantic. ;)
Correct wording or not, White can attack, Black can attack. Every book I own, and I own many, the opening is called The Marshall Attack. The Marshall Gambit sounds strange to my ear already, and I have not played chess that long. It sounds just as strange to me as The Ruy L. Gambit.
Regarding the Anti-Marshall, it's not hard to toss Black back into the Closed Ruy. It's just one pawn move away, a-pawn, h-pawn...
It's late and I need to get to bed.
Fezzik is making some pretty provocative comments here that I don't really agree with like that anyone under FM strength shouldn't play Breyer or that Zaitsev is busted. On the other hand, I also think that Musikamole being a relative beginner could probably develop much faster by studying other aspects of the game rather than opening lines that go over 10 move deep. But if that's what he enjoys doing who am I to say that he shouldn't.
The Marshall Gambit is a line in the QGD semi-slav :
1 d4 d5 2 c4 c6 3 Nc3 e6 4 e4 !? This is the Marshall Gambit
The counterattacking line against the Ruy invented by Frank Marshall is known as either the Marshall Attack or the Marshall counter-attack. nuff said !
As for the Breyer it has served me well when I have used it and this includes wins against titled players and a draw against GM Korneev ( 2600+ fide ) in a rapid event which was also the only thematic otb event I ever played...... so it cannot possibly be bad. After checking my database I see the Breyer scores 45% and is the third most popular choice in the closed Spanish ( Ruy Lopez ) . Interestingly, the two above it in popularity both score worse ! 
Mar 18, 2011
0
#93
Anand, Karpov, Fischer and Tal usually refer to it as the Marshall Attack, but Kasparov calls it the Marshall Counterattack.
Mar 18, 2011
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#94
The advice that relative beginners should focus on tactics and endgames more than openings is sound and wise. But, in the study of openings, there is nothing wrong with struggling through the intricacies of the Breyer. The signature move--redeployment of the knight Nc6-b8 with the idea Nb8-d7--contrasts with Lasker's prescription more than a century ago: never move a piece twice in the opening. Learning such "rule independence" is an important step toward concrete analysis. Even if one never gets to play the Breyer outside of a training game, the ideas are vital in other systems.
echecs06 wrote:
Guys, you are confusing me. Call me old school, but I thought The Marshall ( Counter) Attack had to do with the Ruy Lopez, while the Marshall Gambit was a variation of the Queen's Gambit.
See post #144
Fezzik, I agree that the Marshall attack is a better choice for most players who are looking to win with black. The only problem with it is that there are several anti-Marshall systems that do very well for white and even Kasparov has been known to play one of them .
I am biased in favor of the breyer simply because it is one of my earliest choices in my opening repertoire and one of the very few that I have kept for almost 40 years now. Recently though I have been trying out the Kere's line in my online games but havent yet used it in OTB play. You are correct that I don't play the breyer when I need / or expect to win though as any of the sicilians I play are more suitable for that, even the winawer french is..... I usually only play it against stronger players when a draw is just fine and the games I win in it are usually because white over presses in an all out bid to win.......
By some reason i never played aruy. Carr cann is best for white even against enginees.
Mar 18, 2011
0
#99
Reb wrote:
I am biased in favor of the breyer simply because it is one of my earliest choices in my opening repertoire and one of the very few that I have kept for almost 40 years now.
That statement says much in favor of the opening.
Musikamole, study the opening with confidence, but when you need to win with Black, the Sicilian is a better choice. The Breyer alone will not give you a repertoire.
A terrible mistake Black can make in the Breyer. Move order matters.