Scandinavian with 2.Nc3

Sort:
Elpawnbroker

I enjoy playing this opening but I don't think it's practical to continue.  Here's the mainline that is bothering me.

Is this position salvageable?  How would you develop the light square bishop?  Also, before I completely give up on 2.Nc3, what do y'all think of this setup?

I know exd5 is solid for white but I played 1.Nc3 for quite a while and I'm just hesitant to give up on not getting to see it at all anymore.  Any advice is appreciated.


Strangemover

Personal opinion...anything other than 2.exd5 is a waste of time.

Elpawnbroker

Apparently stockfish doesn't like Qc7 in my second line and gives white a .5 advantage if that's played.  Altering it a bit, the engine analysis is black has a .16 advantage. I went through the most common moves after exd5 through move 9 and stockfish gives white an advantage of .42.  I'm hoping to get myself in a position I know better than my opponent, so I'm curious about the most playable way to do that.  My first line got black an advantage of .54.  I don't ever see it.  You play the setup I see and white is winning.  It seems most aren't prepared for it, but if I play in a tournament, people will catch on and I'll eventually see the ugly lines.  

If anyone is familiar with the KIA, I'm curious if that's a good version of it.  I mean if the KID is playable, shouldn't this be playable, a tempo up and with f4 being played without having to move the knight out of the way?  I would think this line has a lot of potential.  I only see 177 games after move 3 on 365chess.  Seems like it would be a great way to catch your opponent off guard.

SmithyQ

Assuming Black plays the Qxd5 version of the Scandinavian, he has an easy fix to avoid all your lines anyway.  Something to be aware of.

 

Elpawnbroker
gambitlover wrote:

Van Geet has played : 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 d4 3.Nce2 e5 4.Ng3 Be6  and now 5.c3  with the idea  6.cxd4 exd4 7.f4 !?

If 5. ..  c5 then 6.Bb5+

I've seen the early c3 before but I was always worried about d3.  I see now that Qf3 solves that problem.  This might be the best solution considering the KIA setup is totally foreign to me. Black might respond to c3 with a6 but after cxd4 exd4 f4 you're threatening f5, embarrassing the bishop and regaining access to c4.  Black might take with the queen instead of with the e pawn.  Regardless, you could chase him away with Nf3 and then play d4 and the bishop could go to d3.  Not ideal but I think I can play this easier than my first line.

@SmithyQ, lol that really sucks.  I had not seen that before.  I would be totally winging it if that happened.

eta, I looked into the Nimzowitsch Scandinavian type setup at one piont.  1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d5... I gave up Nc6 for the French, but the video on this site, "the modern Nimzowitsch" mentioned it's more popular to play Be2 and then put pawns on d4 and c4.  If I do abandon 2.Nc3, should I try for that kind of setup or Nc3 chasing the queen to a5?

Lee-44
SmithyQ wrote:

Assuming Black plays the Qxd5 version of the Scandinavian, he has an easy fix to avoid all your lines anyway.  Something to be aware of.

 After 3...Qd5 GM Christian Bauer suggests that 4.Nc3 is not forced. Instead White can try 4.Ng3!?

His continuation goes 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 e5!? 6.b3! Be7 7.Bb2 Nh6 8.Bc4 Qd6 9.h3!

With the idea: 9...Be6? 10.Bxe6 Qxe6 11.Qe2 f6 12.d4

RubenHogenhout

I know this line as the van Geet opening that goes like   1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4 3.Ne2 etc.

Elpawnbroker

Yes, it's the van Geet.  I actually started a bunch of 1.Nc3 games so I could test out a few of these ideas rather than wait for someone to play the Scandinavian.  Same position as 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 d4 3.Nce2.

As for dxe4 leading to Black having an extra tempo, I think people are overestimating that line.  When I play it and use the analysis feature after the game, I frequently see "innacuracy, a better move was c6".  On top of that, Scandinavian players are less likely to know the theory of the Caro Kann.  I know engines don't do well with the opening, but most lines I've tested out show white with around a .2 advantage.  That being said, the percentages in the database show black wins more than white.  After 4.Ng3 Bg6 5.Nf3, black wins 38% to white's 32%, 184 games on 365chess.com.  That's roughly the same as the line given earlier with the early c3 after Nce2 and Ng3.

At some level, I'll probably have to give this line up, but I'm going to be stubborn for a while.  If black doesn't know the mainline of the advance variation, you get an advantage quite easily.

Elpawnbroker

One more idea.  About dxe4... Let's say I wanted to leave open the possibility of playing the KIA setup but I'm willing to play the BDG.  How different is it with Nf6 and d4 delayed?  The database has only 6 games after Nxf3.  Is that just because if they wanted to play it, they would've played d4 then e4 after d5?  Would a dutch type setup ruin the fun... since Nf6 hasn't been forced earlier?  Ideally, this would happen...



Yigor

I don't see any problem.

 

 

Elpawnbroker

And then black plays Na6.  The database shows 12 games from that position and black winning 58% and white 25%.  Stockfish says black has a -.7 advantage.  I'd be relieved to get rid of his light bishop since it's guarding f5 and getting a knight to f5 is one of the goals of the opening. but after Na6 or before Na6, they can play h5 and you have to play h4.  that takes away Nh4 to get both knights eyeing f5.  It's a dream position when they just put knights on f6 and c6 and Bg4 and just swap out the bishop for a knight.  The knight goes to f5, f4 pawn break opening a file for the rook.  The queen is already there because he played Bxf3.  There's a very simple and hard to stop king-side attack in that case.  In this position, I don't know what to do with those knights and I struggle to find a plan.

edit, this looks bad to me:

PawnosaurusRex
Strangemover wrote:

Personal opinion...anything other than 2.exd5 is a waste of time.

Ditto. exd5 all day, everyday

Pixenix

look at the black knight tango - it is somewhat the same opening from the black side, you can maybe find some ideas there.

Yigor

Elpawnbroker: Make your move for black if U think that Na6 is dangerous.

 

 

Elpawnbroker

Yigor, I was going by what performed the best in the database.  Here's some potential moves.  It's just that I feel like I can't risk playing a position like that in a rated game, which I'm only just about to start playing.  I don't want to turn a defense like the Scandinavian into something better than it is.


IM Pfren, thanks for your analysis.