Scotch Four Knights... What would you do after this move?

I've been enjoying the Scotch Four Knights as of late. I understand that it's not White's "best" try, but it's pretty straightforward and offers just enough of an advantage and is in no way "bad".

Anyway, I find that people not as familiar often go into the following sideline:

I don't really like going right into the end game, but maybe that's the best option? Anyway, how would you continue?

4...d6 is a terrible move. Do not trade pawns and queens. Take the space advantage and be happy. Black needs to play 4...exd4 or 4...Bb4

Keep in mind, the player with the space advantage wants to keep pieces on. The player with the space disadvantage wants to trade pieces to alleviate the cramp. Play 5.d5! There is no flashy mating attack in 25 moves or less, but you put the squeeze on black until he suffocates. It's like tying someone to a bunch of bricks and dropping them in the deep end of a pool rather than blowing their brains out with an AK47.

I'm more of a "keep the tension in the middle" kind of guy.  I'd probably play 5.Bb5.  It develops a new piece, pins a N, and prepares castling.

Great commentary. I've heard keeping the tension is a good theory (in general) where possible, but I do see the value in pushing d5

I get the impression that this would lead to more of a closed game though, and suspect Black would attempt to eventually push for a King side attack in the future since the Queen side is now locked up.

Looks like you have a variety of pleasant ways to continue then.  I think it's a little early in the game to proclaim any one move as best; depends on your playing style and how you wish to proceed.  I checked a few databases and almost any reasonable move has a winning %.  

I suppose by a computer analysis that may be true. It kind of reminds me of the exchange philador when the Queens come off the board and you slowly try to chip away.

I personally find it hard to come up with a concrete plan in these situations.

Ha! 

For what it's worth I did play dxe in one game (believe I lost it eventually). 

IM Pfren's suggestion is also intersting... a waiting move of sorts.

Interesting parry-thrust-and-counter-thrust!

FWIW after 16 minutes Stockfish-6 has 5. dxe5 battling out with 5. d5.

Whaaat?

Are you saying that a move that comes quite natural and it's not 100% certified by theory doesn't lead to immediate disaster for black?

Here it seems like black can even decide how to play his open games, instead of having to memorize a bunch of moves.

We should definitely report this back in the other thread.

5. a3???

5.Bb5 is probably best, back to Ruy Lopez.

Yes, I think I have seen a lot of people running an engine at a single thread to evaluate a position after move (cough... cough...) four. The problem is that the output isn't always funny.

pfren: Yeah, I don't like to kill my bandwidth by running multiple threads for a chess engine -- I'm also programming and browsing. I just wanted a taste of what an engine would say.

Do you know how threads work? Do you understand the acronym "FWIW"?

I've left the engine running another couple hours and 5.d5 and 5.dxe5 are still at the top. Currently 5.d5 is ahead 30 centipawns. FWIW.

I recognize engine limitations in the opening. Still at this point I doubt 5.d5 is as bad a move as your claim of "positional blindness." I imagine it's playable and some hot new talent may find possibilities there, like your mention of Giri's 4.h3.

Chess theory is not over. You're the old guard and you will tell us how it was done in your day like it's an eternal truth. But it ain't necessarily so.

Cough, cough.

If the black knight on c6 was on d7 than you would be playing the Philidor!!

Everyone loves the Philidor!

"Pawns are the Soul of Chess"

Blocking the center just isnt going to be intuitive to most masters...its not considered the right apporahc to such positions...

The history of chess is largely the history of overthrowing the previous intuitions of masters. Which doesn't mean anything goes, but exceptions are found and new possibilities discovered.

I learned chess from Fred Reinfeld, who offered a classical Steinitz-Tartakower kind of chess that works pretty darn well for novices. I fainted dead away when I started playing in tournaments and discovered people breaking the Reinfeld rules right, left and center with impunity.

Since then I don't take anyone's intuitions that seriously. Stuff works until it doesn't, then people find new stuff which works until it doesn't.

I'm old enough to remember when the Berlin Defense of the Ruy was considered too passive and GMs wouldn't play it.

The current revolution in chess, as I see it, is largely driven by computer engines. All sorts of moves previously screened out by "master intuition" are now up for grabs.

pfren went on about Giri playing 4.h3 a move earlier in this Four Knights . However many hours later, my Stockfish-6 now has 5.h3 as the first choice in our current line. I wouldn't be surprsied if Giri got the idea for 4.h3 by letting an engine run for a day or two.

Right now, according to Stockfish, White can play h3, a3, Be2, Be3, d5, dxe5, Bb5 and they all converge within 80 centipawns. GM practice, should fashion allow, might tell a different story, but I really wouldn't be surprised if 5.d5 works to a mild White advantage as well as the other options.

As ThrillerFan said, 5.d5 gains space. It kicks the c6 knight and helps block the f8 bishop. Sure Black has an f5 break, but it's all trade-offs. Who would say White's position after 5.d5 is bad?

I would hate to agree with Pfren.

However, I just don't know what ThrillerFan is thinking with his 5.d5 pawn push.

I do not agree with Pfren's statement "positional blindness".

Not yet any way.

I haven't heard of ThrillerFan follow up!

He might not be positionally blind.

He might be creative!

If Thrillerfan says he is going to play on the queenside here than I call him positionally blind.

If Thrillerfan says he is not going to play on the queenside than I call him creative!

In a normal position after the move 5.d5.

The center becomes locked.

Both sides would than follow a pawn pointing strategy.

The black d6 + e5 pawn are pointing to the kingside.

Black will continue playing kingside pawn pushes.

The next black pawn break will be with f5.

In response white would than follow his pawns.

The e4 + d5 pawn are pointing to the queen side.

White will continue playing queenside pawn pushes

The next white pawn break will be with c5.

However, here is the catch in this position!

If ThrillerFan adopts the normal position strategy I said above than he is positionally blind because he should know he will lose that race!

The reason why he will lose the race is because he has already commited his knight on c3.

Thriller Fan has the knight on c3 before the pawn push d5.

Which means after the pawn push d5 Thriller Fan will have to move the knight on c3!

Than play the pawn push c4!

Than play his knight back to c3.

Which means he is positionally blind because he is wasting to much time.

So in other words he can no longer do this strategy any more.

He has already commited himself to a knight on c3 that queen side vs king side race will cause him to lose.

If he wanted to do this queen side vs king side race he should of played d5 sooner!

It is to late now!

So now lets get creative!

We can't win in this arms race so were do we play?

We can't play on the queen side because we would lose the race by our faulty piece placement.

We can't play in the center because it is locked.

The only place we have left to play is on the kingside.

However, black is playing on the kingside!

How do you play on the kingside when black is playing on the kingside?

The creative juices are flowing!

Well work backwards!

What is black doing?

Black is going to play f5 than he is going to push forward with his pawns to continue attacking the kingside!

If we can't beat black in the queenside vs kingside race than we have to use blacks own kingside momentum against him!

How do we do it?

Eureka! What if white waits until black castles kingside.

Than encourages black to play on the kingside!

Once this begins happening white than can castle queenside and place to 2 fat rooks on the G and H file to meet black's king side pawn storm?

It seems like a creative idea to me.

If your opponent wants to run at you with spears.

Set up 2 machine guns on the G and H file to meet them.

Why should we discourage this from happening.

Well here's Stockfish-6 after running all night on the Four Knights position:

Stockfish shows 5.d5 at the top by one centipawn and several other reasonable looking moves within nine centipawns, which is insignificant.

My point is not that 5.d5 must be the best move -- hardly -- just that it's a playable move not to be dismissed as "positional blindness."

This "positional blindness" charge likely reflects another blind spot in current master inuition which could change in a heartbeat if some hotshot player starts burning the shirts off his opponents with the line.

How many times in chess have we seen the old conventional wisdom turned on its head like this?

pfren: For goodness sake. Have you learned nothing from chess history? Have you not noticed that the conventional wisdom of one generation of masters is often overthrown by the next? Lines that weren't played ten or twenty years before suddenly become all the rage?

There is much groupthink going on with grandmasters and for good reason. It's safer to go play what other players than branch out on your own, unless you have really done your homework. That's what the leaders do. Top level players like Fischer, Kasparov, Kramnik. They'll play lines other people won't, succeed, and then everyone else files in behind.

Anyway, to say few GMs are playing something is interesting, but far from conclusive.

But heck, I can safely bet that 5.d5 is not an interesting one...

pfren: So now you're moving the goal posts.

You called 5.d5 "positional blindness." If that's a serious charge, it means White should pay a price for being positionally blind, as in thoughtlessly accepting doubled pawns without compensation.

Now you are saying 5.d5 is merely "not interesting," which is something else entirely.

I'm sure if it was 1999, before Kramnik unveiled his Berlin Wall against Kasparov, you would be lecturing us how the Berlin Defense was too passive and uninteresting, and informing us that few GMs played it.