Should I learn the French Defense Winawer or the Classic Variation?

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iAmBlindNow

Both start on the same position and black choose the one he wants to play. I think at certain moment of live I am going to learn both, but before that I want to master only one of them.

About my style, I would say I prefer to play solid games/lines over aggressive ones, but like to play dynamically, so I prefer 1,000 times to play a gambit than complicated positions. Here is an example of a game where I felt very confortable (except from move 16 to 18... I have issues with the horse).

 

 

Currently, as black, I am playing only the french (exchange and advance learned, Tarrash in progress) and I need a line against 3.Nf3. Do you recommend the Classic or the Winawer?

 

greydayeveryday
Learn them both
amiriyektaahmad73

French defence is an old and strategic variation.....but I prefer Sicilian defence #🤗

poucin

Just try both and make your choice.

Personnally i prefer Winawer because i find plans rather easy.

HorribleTomato

Winniwer, but this is from white POV. I played the against the classical (me, 1445 vs. 1550) OTB and the other person got grand slammed. If you want to play the classical, then watch the poisoned b2 pawn! Also watch for greek gift, and try to get developed  at a moderate pace... the main line of the classical cramps development.

ThrillerFan
poucin wrote:

Just try both and make your choice.

Personnally i prefer Winawer because i find plans rather easy.

Like he said, try both and decide.

 

He prefers the Winner, I prefer 3...Nf6, but even then I do not play the Classical.  I play the McCutcheon  against 4.Bg5.

 

Matter of taste.

Clifton_Prince

 I don't really know any more what "should I learn" means, when people say they're thinking about taking on an opening. I used to think it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves in about five standard variations," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to learn the reasoning behind the first six moves so when someone does something different I can figure out what he did wrong and exploit it (but if they don't do something wrong, then I don't know what to do on the seventh move)," so then in order to remedy that problem I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first SEVEN moves," and then I thought it meant ...

 

Really. Define "learn"? Thanks. Not being sarcastic.

d0su
Clifton_Prince wrote:

 I don't really know any more what "should I learn" means, when people say they're thinking about taking on an opening. I used to think it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves in about five standard variations," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to learn the reasoning behind the first six moves so when someone does something different I can figure out what he did wrong and exploit it (but if they don't do something wrong, then I don't know what to do on the seventh move)," so then in order to remedy that problem I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first SEVEN moves," and then I thought it meant ...

 

Really. Define "learn"? Thanks. Not being sarcastic.

In your example, "learning" the first six moves would mean memorizing six moves deep for both sides ("if they do this, then I do that"), but having ideas of where to go after that. That means knowing your ideal piece placement in the pawn structure, what a typical endgame looks like, common tactical motifs, and so on -- but not necessarily to the level of having a prepared response for each individual move your opponent might make.

To the OP: go with the Winawer. IMO the Classical feels sort of "plodding" and much easier to play against, as white.

RoobieRoo

 Not sure if this is mainline but it looks pretty good for white

ThrillerFan
d0su wrote:
Clifton_Prince wrote:

 I don't really know any more what "should I learn" means, when people say they're thinking about taking on an opening. I used to think it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first six moves in about five standard variations," then I thought it meant, "I'm going to learn the reasoning behind the first six moves so when someone does something different I can figure out what he did wrong and exploit it (but if they don't do something wrong, then I don't know what to do on the seventh move)," so then in order to remedy that problem I thought it meant, "I'm going to memorize the first SEVEN moves," and then I thought it meant ...

 

Really. Define "learn"? Thanks. Not being sarcastic.

In your example, "learning" the first six moves would mean memorizing six moves deep for both sides ("if they do this, then I do that"), but having ideas of where to go after that. That means knowing your ideal piece placement in the pawn structure, what a typical endgame looks like, common tactical motifs, and so on -- but not necessarily to the level of having a prepared response for each individual move your opponent might make.

To the OP: go with the Winawer. IMO the Classical feels sort of "plodding" and much easier to play against, as white.

 

Once again, matter of opinion.  I find the Winawer easier to beat with White, which I reach after 1.d4 e6 2.e4! d5 3.Nc3 Bb4.

 

He or she should be trying both out and seeing which he or she is more comfortable with rather than going based on the opinion of a few chess.com scrubs!  Half the people are going to say 3...Nf6 and the other half are going to say 3...Bb4.  This is not like saying "Should I play the French or the Elephant Gambit?" where clearly one answer is far superior to the other!  There is no superiority between 3...Nf6 and 3...Bb4 against 3.Nc3 in the French Defense.

RoobieRoo

What's the best line to play against 3...Nf6  If anyone knows one with opposite side castling I'd be very interested to learn what it was.  I have a fetish for opposite side castling. wink.png

ThrillerFan
robbie_1969 wrote:

What's the best line to play against 3...Nf6  If anyone knows one with opposite side castling I'd be very interested to learn what it was.  I have a fetish for opposite side castling.

 

I can't say there is ever a line where opposite side castling occurs "exclusively", but it's very common and happens at a very high ratio in the Steinitz Variation:

 

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 and now Black has options, like 7...Qb6, 7...cxd4, 7...a6 (My personal preference with Black), 7...Be7, etc.  Each has their own nuances that you must study.  That said, more often than not, White will place his Queen on d2 and castle Queenside.  Once in a rare while, I've seen White castle Kingside in some offbeat line of the Steinitz, but typically it's Queenside, and Black almost exclusively castles Kingside in this line!

RoobieRoo

wonder if this is any good?

RoobieRoo

hmmmm Willhelm you say, interesting.

d0su
ThrillerFan wrote:

Once again, matter of opinion.  I find the Winawer easier to beat with White, which I reach after 1.d4 e6 2.e4! d5 3.Nc3 Bb4.

 

He or she should be trying both out and seeing which he or she is more comfortable with rather than going based on the opinion of a few chess.com scrubs!  Half the people are going to say 3...Nf6 and the other half are going to say 3...Bb4.  This is not like saying "Should I play the French or the Elephant Gambit?" where clearly one answer is far superior to the other!  There is no superiority between 3...Nf6 and 3...Bb4 against 3.Nc3 in the French Defense.

Well, the OP said he liked dynamic play, so between the two choices, the Winawer offers a more immediate imbalance for dynamic play (giving up the bishop pair for doubled pawns). And the OP said he was going to learn both anyway... seems a  reasonable suggestion to make.

But yeah, of course it is a matter of opinion.

iAmBlindNow

Thanks to every body. At the end I ended up learning the Burn Variation (by tansposition, I think), witch is looks solid IMO and is really easy to learn. This was while I ended learning the ideas of the Tarrasch. The bad thing about the Burn is that it looks to give a lot of Draw (at least on higher levels, maybe it won't be like this for me). 

So, now that I have a solid defense and simple (the Burn) once this position is reached, I decided to learn the McCutcheon suggested by @ThrillerFan because it look really crazy and dynamic. Then, I will go with the Winawer and the Classic in order to surprise my friends some times when they expect the other defenses.

Thanks to every body and I appreciate your help.

--------

PD:

Just in case you want to know how I reach the Burn after 4.Bg4, the answer is simple: 4...dxe4. Normally this it continues like this:

 

 

iAmBlindNow
DeirdreSkye escribió:
robbie_1969 wrote:

What's the best line to play against 3...Nf6  If anyone knows one with opposite side castling I'd be very interested to learn what it was.  I have a fetish for opposite side castling.

Zakharov's idea against Classical  is quite dangerous.

A very interesting system that sometimes leads to interesting positional games and others to very sharp attacking games.It doesn't offer any objective advantage but the position is much easier for white than it is for Black. 

 

Hmm... This is interesting... I am not an expert as you can see looking at ELO, but as someone who is currently studying hard the French Defense right now (and the Steinitz is my second favorite variation), I would say he was not ready or in the need to do f6 on his 8th move (this move is typical on the French, but you need to prepare it). Also, if my studies are ok, You should avoid castling that fast and continue with 8...a6, preparing b5 (wicth he tried later in the game but it was too late) in order to continue with queen's side expansion.  So, f6 and 0-0 where not exactly theoretical moves.

I think, the game is supposed to continue like this:

 

And the black has move like Bb4 and b4. Also, the horses would can jump to fight in the queen side very quickly... and don't forget about the queen... even the a8 rook can move to the semi-opened column C (after moving the bishop). It would be pretty dangerous to the white to continue with the idea of castling on the queen side.

At least, this is my opinion based on what I have studied so far. 

Homsar
I've played both many times, and right now I like the Winawer more
ko12ko12ko12

No. Learn a real opening, not that wimp garbage.

RubenHogenhout
iAmBlindNow schreef:

Both start on the same position and black choose the one he wants to play. I think at certain moment of live I am going to learn both, but before that I want to master only one of them.

About my style, I would say I prefer to play solid games/lines over aggressive ones, but like to play dynamically, so I prefer 1,000 times to play a gambit than complicated positions. Here is an example of a game where I felt very confortable (except from move 16 to 18... I have issues with the horse).

 

 

Currently, as black, I am playing only the french (exchange and advance learned, Tarrash in progress) and I need a line against 3.Nf3. Do you recommend the Classic or the Winawer?

 

The game you showed is the advanche variation with 3.e5 .  With is perfect for black if white is play it like this, lol!  For the Winauwer or Classic white has to play 3.Nc3 first and then you can chooses between 3....Nf6 classic or 3....Bb4 winauwer.