As Fiver said, Nf6 and d5 are the only real responses for black. After Nf6 white is basically forced to play e5 if he wants to play for advantage, as d3 and/or Qc2/Qe2 are all passive and positionally suspect moves. I would probably suggest for you to start with 2...d5(being a new Sicilian devotee), as it leads to more natural development.
Sicilian Defense Alpine Variation
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Nov 26, 2015
0
#3
I play 2.d5. I don't know if it's any "better" than 2.Nf6 but it's what I like.
Nov 26, 2015
0
#4
2..g6 isn't dubious at all. It either leads to an equal IQP position even white may have a tiny advantage, or to a more closed structure after the e5 advance. I play 2..d6, and I can tell you that 2..g6 is more sound.
Nov 26, 2015
0
#5
Black is fine in both of them with good play. 2..g6 is advantageous to white how?
Nov 26, 2015
0
#6
G6 isn't a mistake at all. H6 gives white a big advantage while g6 does not.
Nov 26, 2015
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#7
Because if white plays good moves and doesn't play like a beginner he should have an advantage. This is the problem with pointless pawn moves when you're already down a tempo.
So what is the otb stats of black when he plays g6?
"... 2 ... g6 ... objectively ... is quite mediocre, ... 2 ... e5?! ... does not equalize either ..." - GM Evgeny Sveshnikov (2010)
Poor Freiberg, u ask a question and answers are just fighting about 2...g6 and other things, without explanations...
U proposed 2...g6, 2...b6, 2...Nf6, but do u know why these moves are played?
Before playing and chosing a black's response, think about your opponent : what c3 is aiming?
Idea is just playing d4 and having 2 good pawns in centre.
Then u choose what u like :
- U let white erect centre, so u can play a developing move like 2...d6 or 2...g6, but u have to like these kind of positions where your opponents has centre, and u, u will fight against it.
- U disturb white's big idea, and u have 2 ways, attacking e4 : 2...Nf6 or 2...d5.
2...d5 is simpler in a way, u define structure, white will exchange and u can have something like this : 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.exd5 (on e5 the pawn will be a target) Qxd5 4.d4 and u will mostly play against an isolani when u will play c5xd4 at some moment. U will continue development with Nf6, Nc6, Bg4, e6 for example (move order depends on what white plays) .
2...Nf6 is more complicated, provoking 3.e5 Nd5 and u will fight against white centre with Nc6 and d6.
No need to go further i think because your level doesnt need to give mass of variations, just simple ideas.
Nov 27, 2015
0
#11
Fixing_A_Hole wrote:
As Fiver said, Nf6 and d5 are the only real responses for black. After Nf6 white is basically forced to play e5 if he wants to play for advantage, as d3 and/or Qc2/Qe2 are all passive and positionally suspect moves. I would probably suggest for you to start with 2...d5(being a new Sicilian devotee), as it leads to more natural development.
FiveOfSwords said there were only two "main" responses. Maybe I'm playing semantics here, but I will agree with "main". Now you say they are the only "real" responses for Black, and I totally disagree. Black probably has about a half dozen playable moves other 2...d5 and 2...Nf6. For instance he three ordinary responses to 2.Nf3, 2...e6, 2...d6, and 2...Nc6, are all perfectly playable ("real responses"), as long as Black knows what he's doing and isn't just playing them because that's what they play against 2.Nf3. 2...e6 is probably the most sound of the lot, and will frequently transpose to a French Advance or French Exchange. 2...d6 3. d4 Nf6 is a line White has to be prepared for. And if 2...Nc6 Black must respond to 3. d4 with 3...d5 -- transposing into 2...d5 lines -- or after 3...cxd4 4.cxd4 then 4...d5.
Nov 27, 2015
0
#13
poucin wrote:
Poor Freiberg, u ask a question and answers are just fighting about 2...g6 and other things, without explanations...
U proposed 2...g6, 2...b6, 2...Nf6, but do u know why these moves are played?
Before playing and chosing a black's response, think about your opponent : what c3 is aiming?
Idea is just playing d4 and having 2 good pawns in centre.
Then u choose what u like :
- U let white erect centre, so u can play a developing move like 2...d6 or 2...g6, but u have to like these kind of positions where your opponents has centre, and u, u will fight against it.
- U disturb white's big idea, and u have 2 ways, attacking e4 : 2...Nf6 or 2...d5.
2...d5 is simpler in a way, u define structure, white will exchange and u can have something like this : 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.exd5 (on e5 the pawn will be a target) Qxd5 4.d4 and u will mostly play against an isolani when u will play c5xd4 at some moment. U will continue development with Nf6, Nc6, Bg4, e6 for example (move order depends on what white plays) .
2...Nf6 is more complicated, provoking 3.e5 Nd5 and u will fight against white centre with Nc6 and d6.
No need to go further i think because your level doesnt need to give mass of variations, just simple ideas.
Poucin I will take your advise gladly, but one thing I disagree on.
There is always NEED to reach a higher level of advise,
for you learn from the best in order to become the best!
Nov 27, 2015
0
#14
Which you have already given me, I recieved exactly the advise I need, now I can expirement with it, and learn to run.
Possibly helpful:
Experts on the Anti-Sicilian by Jacob Aagaard & John Shaw (ed.) (2011)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140626195254/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen147.pdf
Fighting the Anti-Sicilians by Richard Palliser (2007)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627130915/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen106.pdf
Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black by Dorian Rogozenko (2003)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627050549/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen50.pdf
Chess Explained: The c3-Sicilian by Sam Collins (2007)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627101750/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen96.pdf
Starting Out: The c3 Sicilian by John Emms (2008)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627022143/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen116.pdf
Sveshnikov vs. the Anti-Sicilians by GM Evgeny Sveshnikov (2014)
Coming soon:
Grandmaster Repertoire: Beating the Anti-Sicilians by Vassilios Kotronias
Someone recently murdered a few people with boxes of these. It turned out they were a cereal killer...
Fiveofswords hat geschrieben:
black can play 2...e6 and go for french type positions. thats fine but its not as common since obviously if black wanted the french he wouldve played the french.
White can play French Advance or French Exchange against 2...e6, which are arguably considered white's third and fifth dangerous options against the French. Therefore it makes perfectly sense to include this move into your repertoire.
Regarding 2...g6 I rather agree with you. I've been playing this move for almost 15 years before finally giving up on it. White has several ways to a safe += advantage. Most simple in my view is 3.d4 cd 4.cd d5 5.e5 Bg7 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be2 Bg4 8.Nbd2. Even more unpleasant in my view are Morra-like approaches, white omitting cxd4 in favour of quick development (Nf3, Bc4, 0-0). g6 isn't particularly good against the Morra.
That said, I also think that 2...g6 is perfectly playable. It's just a second rate line, not quite sufficient for equality. Against the Alapin black has three safe equalizers at his disposal, so it doesn't make much sense to me (anymore) to give him various options for a good position.
Fiveofswords wrote:
I would agree that black has more options than just these 2, and they are the 'main' moves but there can be other 'decent' moves. But i dont have tremendous respect for 2...nc6 or 2...d6. Black can play this way if he wants sure, but I think its not a terribly practical decision. 2...e6 is more in the respectable category, and i also happen to have decent respect for 2...b6. But that's pretty much it imho.
Oh FOS shame shame shame!
2...e6 should be at the top of the category!
Like 2....e6 should be way up there ^^^
While 2...nf6 or 2...d5 should be way down here!
Just because you beat me in a couple of games doesn't mean you can talk smack about my killer move FOS!
It is obvious I was so unprepared.
The fact you are the only Alapin player on this site makes a person unprepared lol.
I can't even remember the analysis I went over in those lines.
I am going to have to look at it again.
However, that does bring up a good point.
I think I might put our games in my Contender series.
I will send you a trophy and link later.
Yes, of course it's an independent type of French Exchange. White probably has slightly better practical chances to pose problems for black than in the regular French Exchange.
Anyway, no matter what you call it, it's theoretically sound. And if you prefer not to call it a French, then your statement "obviously if black wanted the french he wouldve played the french" makes even less sense than before.
As I just started to study the Sicilian Defense,
I find it quiet difficult to find solid ground.
In the database I found three variaions which are commonly played.
Nr.1 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 Nf6
Nr.2 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 g6
Nr.3 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 b6
I personaly prefer the first two more than nr.3.
But I am questioning wether it makes sense for white to play e5 after Nf6, and how to best respond as black to it.