sicilian najdorf

Sort:
jwhitesj

I'm trying to understand the sicilian najdorf a little more and having trouble with a concept.  Is one of the goals for black to make a push with to d5 or e5?  pushing e5 seems to leave a backward pawn on d6 but if you can successfully push d5 you have a solid pawn structure and what appears to be a relatively equal position.

In the below position, Black can either push d5 or e5 successfully, the problem is you still aren't allowing the bishop to develop but if you can get the d5 push in it seems good for black.  Am I wrong?

LavaRook

Thats a Scheveningan structure (could arise from a Najdorf style move order to avoid the Keres) for Black but I'm not really sure what white is playing here..

And the LSB can be developed to b7 after b5 btw...

Can you show a move order or something?

The pure Najdorf is characterized by a d6/e5 structure like so:

Except for Bc4 and Bg5 lines, Black generally plays that d6/e5 structure if he wants to play a Najdorf.

And as for the backward d6 pawn, yes, but you really gotta put faith in that DSB (note the common maneuver ...Bf8 in many games) Cool. The d5 square is the most important. And it is also known that in this structure, knights can be valued more than bishops. Just go through a bunch of master games in the english attack.

jwhitesj
Estragon wrote:

Never seen a Nadjorf like that, what variation is it?


 If you can't help, why post.  I'm obviously rated way below you.  Im trying to understand the system.  How the moves were made is not as important to me asunderstanding the key concept.  That's all I want to know about here.  I want to understand the idea behind the e5 push vs. pushing d5 and why e5 is considered better.  Just because my diagram doesn't seem plausible doesn't help.  All I was trying to do was create a position where it was safe to push either e5 or d5 and I wanted to know if their is a situation where d5 would be correct over e5.  Also helping understand why it's ok in this position to leave a backward d pawn.  I don't get it.

eddysallin

 More often then not opinon rules the day. Trust yours , learn from experience and u will win your share of games......g.l  and g. chess

kwaloffer
jwhitesj wrote:
Estragon wrote:

Never seen a Nadjorf like that, what variation is it?


 If you can't help, why post.  I'm obviously rated way below you.  Im trying to understand the system.  How the moves were made is not as important to me asunderstanding the key concept.  That's all I want to know about here.  I want to understand the idea behind the e5 push vs. pushing d5 and why e5 is considered better.

But that entirely depends on the position! And perhaps more so in the Najdorf than in other openings. Your position doesn't look like a Najdorf at all, White pieces are off.

jwhitesj
kwaloffer wrote:
jwhitesj wrote:
Estragon wrote:

Never seen a Nadjorf like that, what variation is it?


 If you can't help, why post.  I'm obviously rated way below you.  Im trying to understand the system.  How the moves were made is not as important to me asunderstanding the key concept.  That's all I want to know about here.  I want to understand the idea behind the e5 push vs. pushing d5 and why e5 is considered better.

But that entirely depends on the position! And perhaps more so in the Najdorf than in other openings. Your position doesn't look like a Najdorf at all, White pieces are off.


 Move the Knight on e2 to c3 and it's anot far off at all.  If it's up to the position, then base it off the position I gave you.

or you can forget the position and explain why  black chooses to deal with a backward pawn in the Najdorf which is what I asked in the first post.  I should just delete the diagram because people don't seem to get it.  The point is white didn't play the opening correctly, so Black can advance the d5 pawn, if that oppurtunity is given to you, should you use that oppurtunity to play d5.  Is it clear now?

kwaloffer

Black chooses to deal with the backward pawn because it turns out not to be much of a problem, and neither can white use the d5 square very effectively. The pawn on e5 stops white's e-pawn from advancing and if it's exchanged for white's pawn on f4, black can put a knight on e5. Those advantages are supposed to be more important than the d-file weaknesses.

Advancing d6-d5 depends on whether White can play e4-e5 with advantage, I think. Often that pawn becomes really annoying. In your diagram that's not an option so ...d5 may well be a good idea for equalizing. On the other hand, ...e5 restricts the d3 bishop.

But I'm not an expert on this opening.

SMCB1997

Pushing e5 is a seriously double edged move that weakens d5. As black I push d5, as I've been told its what you should always try to push in the sicilian. To free the LSB, b5 is logical followed by Bb7 and pressure on whites e4 pawn builds.

jwhitesj
kwaloffer wrote:

Black chooses to deal with the backward pawn because it turns out not to be much of a problem, and neither can white use the d5 square very effectively. The pawn on e5 stops white's e-pawn from advancing and if it's exchanged for white's pawn on f4, black can put a knight on e5. Those advantages are supposed to be more important than the d-file weaknesses.

Advancing d6-d5 depends on whether White can play e4-e5 with advantage, I think. Often that pawn becomes really annoying. In your diagram that's not an option so ...d5 may well be a good idea for equalizing. On the other hand, ...e5 restricts the d3 bishop.

But I'm not an expert on this opening.


 

Thak you for your thoughtful and well explained comment.  I can't believe it took 8 replies before somone said something constructive in this thread.

tommypro

Hey guys, How should I play against this opening better


?

Mal_Smith
The pure Najdorf is characterized by a d6/e5 structure like so: [see post #3]

To be more precise, according to Burgess, the Najdorf is a main line Sicilian characterised by:

... preparing for 6...e5, which White often discourages with 6. Bc4 or 6. Bc5. Though there may be other options. Any thoughts on the best sixth moves for White and Black?

Mal_Smith

There are several Sicilians similar to the Najdorf, which can transpose into a Najdorf player system, e,g., c3 Sicilian, or transpose from the Najdorf (e.g., the Scheveningen...)

Mal_Smith
I played a game of 15 | 10 just after my last posts to this thread and was determine to play a Najdorf. But my opponent played an opening I'd never seen before! Later I found it was called the "Reti: Sicilian invitation". So maybe I made the right decision to attempt to play it as much like a Najdorf Sicilian as possible


Note the typical Najdorf like moves: 2...d6, 4...f6,

Didn't have time to play a6 to stop the check. But the exchange 6... Nbxd7 places the Queens Knight on a useful square, I think. I just saw a Bobby Fischer game where he played Nd7. This supports 13...d5, after 10... Nb6, and I think it worked OK?!

7...e5 makes the typical Najdorf thrust, a bit later than usual and against Q rather than N!?  Notice I finally get round to completing the Najdorf pattern with 11. a6. I did this mainly because I was determined to play the Najdorf happy.png, but it does stop a potential Knight or Q advance to b5, I thought, ... and the computer didn't barf at it.

Note between moves 13 and 28, with no inaccuracies form either side, I think you see how the Najdorf central domination can undermine the opposition. Or as we are both below 1400 I can at least kid myself I did this... (or Najdorf  did this...)

Cherub_Enjel

I think the OP's rating progress (it's been 6 years since first post) shows the benefit of studying the Najdorf below the 2200 level.

Mal_Smith
Optimissed wrote:

<<The pure Najdorf is characterized by a d6/e5 structure>>

This is incorrect. It's a6, d6, Nf6.

Do you have a source for this assertion? Burgess defines the Najdorf as in my post #14. That said, Burgess has been shown to be wrong before (see the King's Indian thread...) Wikipedia says:

"The Najdorf begins:

1. e4 c5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 cxd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 a6"

This agrees exactly with Burgess.That said, your post does summarise the essentials well, I think. It's just us beginners need things spelled out happy.png

Rat1960

The following link is a good place to go for the Najdorf:
https://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=11&n=3&ms=e4.c5.Nf3.d6.d4.cxd4.Nxd4.Nf6.Nc3.a6

In the early 1950's 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 e5 (Boleslavski)
Within a year or so leading theory became
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e5
Then in 1955 White began experimenting with other moves at 6. At the same time it became clear that 6. ... e5 was hardly a clever move in response to 6. Bc4 or 6. Bg5 

Other variations such as Scheveningen (typified by ... e6) and Sozin began to borrow ... a6 from the Najdorf.
The Gothenburg Interzonal in 1955 in Round 14 had Keres v Najdorf ; Geller v Panno and Spassky v Pilnik. All three games began:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Be7 8. Qf3 h6 9. Bh4 g5 10. fxg5 Nfd7 11. Nxe6 fxe6 12. Qh5+ Kf8 13. Bb5
The three Russians defeated the three Argentinians but even so the variation was gaining traction.
By the time of the 1959 Candidates 16 year old Bobby Fischer varied against Paul Keres with:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Be7 8. Qf3 Qc7 defeating Keres who had been bashing the Najdorf (including poisoned pawn) since the 1955 tournament.

Mal_Smith
BoggleMeBrains wrote:
At some point, Black is going to move his e-pawn, and generally in the Najdorf he wants to play it to e5, something like this:

Half the point of 5... a6 in the Najdorf is that Black wants to play ...e5, but also wants to prevent Ndb5 first.

Couldn't that be put a bit stronger? Burgess implies not that in the Najdorf you generally want to play e5, but that you really want to play e5. It's just that White might prevent him, but Burgess doesn't say how. Is Ndb5 a strong move? My immediate thought is: "chase it away by playing a6", and the only "new" place it can go is a3, which looks out on a limb. So you either lose a tempo or have the Knight going nowhere. Am I missing something?

Surely what a6 is really stopping is Bb5+? Although I'm not sure if that's a real problem for Black or not. But at least it saves some boring messing about with checks happy.png. Burgess says Bc4 also discourages e5, but not why. I play it just to attack f7 for the usual boring old reasons, so I guess e6 is the obvious defensive response to that. And it's 30 times more popular than any other move in the 365 database, including e5, Altough b5, immediately attacking that Bishop seems to have potential... although I'm having doubts about using the b pawn to attack the Queenside pieces. BOP: don't make excessive pawns moves in the opening, you'll weaken your pawn structure, and delay development. So Nd7? Is your brain sufficiently boggled yet?

Rat1960

#26
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be2 e5 (Boleslavski)
The evolution of the Najdorf indeed was based around stopping a b5 invasion.
The earliest Najdorf games went:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e5

Mal_Smith
pfren wrote:
Mal_Smith έγραψε:
Optimissed wrote:

<<The pure Najdorf is characterized by a d6/e5 structure>>

This is incorrect. It's a6, d6, Nf6.

Do you have a source for this assertion? Burgess defines the Najdorf as in my post #14. That said, Burgess has been shown to be wrong before (see the King's Indian thread...) Wikipedia says:

"The Najdorf begins:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6"

This agrees exactly with Burgess.That said, your post does summarise the essentials well, I think. It's just us beginners need things spelled out

He is right. The move order is not mandatory, e.g. a few GM's prefer to enter the Najdorf via 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 a6 move order, to avoid drawish lines like the Prince variation.

I played through the alternative move order in the 365 database, and it justifies pfren's statement about alternative move order. So I can accept that "move order isn't important". But Optimissed gave only some of Black's moves, and none of White's. So how can that be right? Or, rather, it may be right but it's incomplete.

Rat1960

What is the Prince Variation?
B54 ? B55 Prins variation.
Eg:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1848607
Being Carlsen v Karjakin Rapid Game 4

As black I have a game or two start: 1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 a6 3. Nf3 d6 4. d4  

"The Najdorf begins: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6"
That is my belief. I could understand this thread if it said: After 6. Be2 or 6. Be3 black replies 6. ... e6 is that still the Najdorf.