Since when was the Philidor called the lion?

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triggerlips

   Played the Philidor today and according to explorer I was in the the Lions cave, whats that all about?  Someone needs to tell chess.com Lions don't live in caves

triggerlips

But even when it transposes back to a mainline Hanham they still call the lion.   That move order does cut down on theory needed for non e5 players. Saves having to learn to defend against Kings gambit, Bishops opening etc

    Found the website, http://www.vanrekom.nl/thelion/indexgb.htm. They certainly enthusiastic about it. 

 

Have the book the Philidor files, it includes all that stuff but never calls it the lion, it just the Philidor via another move order

SmithyQ

I believe it only truly becomes the Black Lion when Black is able to fully execute his intended maneuver of h6-g5 and Nbd7-f8-g6 and then into f4.  At the very least that’s the hallmark maneuver of the opening.  If Black plays ordinary moves he gets an ordinary Philidor, but if he plays the daring, aggressive set-up then he is worthy of having a lionheart. 

triggerlips

Yes, that was how I understood it, but not according to explorer where it becomes the Ion simply  because of move order to reach the Hanham

 

Lions cave. -  1.e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 Nbd7 4. f4

Lions mouth - with 4.g4

Lions roar. - Normal philidor with Bxf7 lines

Lions head - Normal Philidor

 

There are dozens of them, but most are simply a Philidor, it is only really that idea of of plYing the Knight to f4 and delaying castling that is really new. 

sammy_boi
triggerlips wrote:

But even when it transposes back to a mainline Hanham they still call the lion. 

Programs tend to do that. They're imperfect at identifying the name of the opening.

sammy_boi
triggerlips wrote:

There are dozens of them, but most are simply a Philidor

Yeah, as far as I know it's just a gimmicky name adopted relatively recently.

AussieMatey

Lions eyes  - 1.c4 miles

yureesystem

Why is call the Black Lion because it can be very tactical and white normally underestimate black chances and give black winning chance. On black 6th Nb6 is very tricky and white lost a lot, so not a Philidor Hanham setup. What I like about the Black Lion its a great weapon against weak players or passive players because its tactical nature and against players who refuse play book moves or very aggressive attackers; black setup seem passive but there is a lot dynamic tension like KID.  GMs, IMs and masters play the Black Lion so it must be sound otherwise why would they  play it. For me this defense is better than the Sicilian, its extremely tactical and aggressive you crush any weak player or player who is always attacking your king.  

RuneTonseth

I have tried this in bullet now. I like it alot... Im gonna look at this. 

 

triggerlips

The early deviations are giving me some problems, especially 4.g4.   I found I am hardly ever reaching the mainline.  4.f4 is very popular and another decent way for white to make an early deviation

ThrillerFan

Like someone else said, some clown tried to give it a different name as a selling gimmick to weaker players.

 

It's Philidor's Defense.  Which way you get to it doesn't matter.  Both have their own unique Anti- lines to deal with.  With the Pirc move order, you have to deal with the Queenless middlegame along with 4.f4 and 4.g4.  With the old 1...e5 move order, you have to deal with the Exchange Variation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5!) or else the Larsen or not sure what the other is called.  It is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 where developing the Bishop to e7 is one line, pretty passive, and Larsen's Variation is where you fianchetto the Bishop, and it's basically like a dragon except Black has no e-pawn instead of no c-pawn.

 

The reason 1...d6 has become more popular is because all of those lines that avoid the Hanham, particularly the Exchange Variation, have given White a huge advantage of late.  The Queenless Middlegame, 4.f4, and 4.g4 anti-Hanham lines are easier to tolerate.

yureesystem
ThrillerFan wrote:

Like someone else said, some clown tried to give it a different name as a selling gimmick to weaker players.

 

It's Philidor's Defense.  Which way you get to it doesn't matter.  Both have their own unique Anti- lines to deal with.  With the Pirc move order, you have to deal with the Queenless middlegame along with 4.f4 and 4.g4.  With the old 1...e5 move order, you have to deal with the Exchange Variation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5!) or else the Larsen or not sure what the other is called.  It is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 where developing the Bishop to e7 is one line, pretty passive, and Larsen's Variation is where you fianchetto the Bishop, and it's basically like a dragon except Black has no e-pawn instead of no c-pawn.

 

The reason 1...d6 has become more popular is because all of those lines that avoid the Hanham, particularly the Exchange Variation, have given White a huge advantage of late.  The Queenless Middlegame, 4.f4, and 4.g4 anti-Hanham lines are easier to tolerate.

 

 

This line Black Lion has been played since 1906 by Georg Marco, you and I could not hold a candle to this great past master. Many GMs, IMs and masters played this line, so it is sound. I always been a classical player and shun such defense but lately I been experimenting on defense that border on the dubious side, the pressure to win against low rated; if I can get position that are tactical nature there is where I shine. If you ever played in the first round the pressure to beat a 1600 to 1800 elo so you can go to the next round with a point instead of half point or worst a zero. Low rated player have  nothing to lose, they play very dry line in the hope of a draw and some of them of a solid style, the only way to raddled them is through tactics because they are incompetent in their tactical ability. 

RuneTonseth

I usally play Nc6 againt E4. NIMZ DEFENSE. And sometimes Scandinavian. But this variant looks decent foe.me to learn 

petechester

I agree with ThrillerFan and StupidGM. There is a book where the philidor is called the black lion.
It's named like this to make a bad opening sound exciting. Many players play all these Philidor setup
moves without thinking (e5,d6,Nd7,Nf6,c6,Qc7,Be7, h6, Nf8,g5, Ng6 etc.). Actually Philidor isn't that bad.
Bologan for example used it. But most players learn the above moves by heart and thats it, they dont think
about there opening moves anymore. When I'm playing those guys I always write down their next move because
I know what they gonna play next. There are many openings like this and the respective books always advertised
them as easy to learn, less theory, just remember the setup bla blab. There might be less theory that's true but there is some theory. And you still need
some chess undestanding as well to evaluate the moves you make. There is no shortcut.
Same goes for openings like the Grand Prix Attack or the Kings Indian. Once they don't get their typical kingside attack they start to make horrible moves.
Against the Philidor I play the Shirov-Gambit which is interestingly not completely correct according to Shirov himself, but I know those
Philidor Players don't learn a single thing outside of their system moves. Once they leave known territory they crack.

Don't be fooled by the fancy names like the Black Lion or other fancy stuff like "The lazy [INSERT OPENING NAME HERE]".

kindaspongey

The Black Lion, 2nd Edition by Jerry van Rekom & Leo Jansen (2009)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627122350/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen123.pdf
A Cunning Chess Opening for Black by Sergey Kasparov (2015)
http://www.jeremysilman.com/shop/pc/Cunning-Chess-Opening-for-Black-A-76p3899.htm

https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9008.pdf

oldplodder

I was very excited about this opening and I bought the van rekom/janson book.

The problem is that often good moves for white seem to be overlooked and white can steer the game into positions that are uncomfortable for black.   I wish it was not so but I can find good defenses for black    Here is the main line for the lions den version e2-e4,d7-d6,d2-d4,Ng8-f6, Nb1-c3,Nb8-b7,f2-f4,e7-e5,dxe5,dxe5,fxe5,Nxe5,Qxd8,Kxd8,B-g5    black has lost the right to castle but white has an isolated e pawn and 1 less piece developed.      the book moved for black is c7-c6          but what if white plays   BxNf6   giving black doubled isolated pawns on a half open f file. ??? - very uncomfortable to play as black?     :                                                                                             Similar situation with the lions yawn where the main line leads to an opportunity for white to play BxNf6 cuasing black to get doubled isolated pawns .  This does not look acceptable for black ? 

GWTR
ThrillerFan wrote:

....  With the Pirc move order, you have to deal with the Queenless middlegame along with 4.f4 and 4.g4.  With the old 1...e5 move order, you have to deal with the Exchange Variation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5!) or else the Larsen or not sure what the other is called.  It is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 where developing the Bishop to e7 is one line, pretty passive, and Larsen's Variation is where you fianchetto the Bishop, and it's basically like a dragon except Black has no e-pawn instead of no c-pawn.

 

The reason 1...d6 has become more popular is because all of those lines that avoid the Hanham, particularly the Exchange Variation, have given White a huge advantage of late.  The Queenless Middlegame, 4.f4, and 4.g4 anti-Hanham lines are easier to tolerate.

Pardon my ignorance - how does the Exchange Variation differ from the Queenless Middlegame line?

kindaspongey

http://www.chessgames.com/player/sergey_kasparov.html

sammy_boi
[COMMENT DELETED]
sammy_boi
oldplodder wrote:

I was very excited about this opening and I bought the van rekom/janson book.

The problem is that often good moves for white seem to be overlooked and white can steer the game into positions that are uncomfortable for black.   I wish it was not so but I can find good defenses for black    Here is the main line for the lions den version e2-e4,d7-d6,d2-d4,Ng8-f6, Nb1-c3,Nb8-b7,f2-f4,e7-e5,dxe5,dxe5,fxe5,Nxe5,Qxd8,Kxd8,B-g5    black has lost the right to castle but white has an isolated e pawn and 1 less piece developed.      the book moved for black is c7-c6          but what if white plays   BxNf6   giving black doubled isolated pawns on a half open f file. ??? - very uncomfortable to play as black?     :                                                                                             Similar situation with the lions yawn where the main line leads to an opportunity for white to play BxNf6 cuasing black to get doubled isolated pawns .  This does not look acceptable for black ?