St. George Defense

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gxtmf1

 (Don't say it's horrible say how it's horrible before you bash it)

This defense responds to e4 with a6. Don't stop reading here. Everything I've read and probably much of what everyone has read will dictate that opening with an a or h pawn IS NOT GOOD. But here's food for thought: Anna-Maria Botsari has won 8 games playing this defense while only losing one. That loss also came during a 20-under tournament, which means that while she progressed in she improved her understanding of this move. 

I don't want the discussion to stop at the opening, though; I know it's fun to look at cool, novel, and obscure openings and judge them on their first move(s). I want to know how this affects who wins throughout the entire game, or at least as far as possible. If you want to look at Botsari's games this opening is under ECO: B00. Then, in advanced options, check out black wins, white wins, player 1 wins, and player 2 wins. I think previewing these games may help you understand my confusion (ignore that that sentence may be a para

dox).

Kentering

The only reason is that black prevends Bb5. But... black is already behind in tempi, and now he gets two behind. White can control the center.

But Kasparov can play h4 against me as well, and he will win. Is h4 then a good opening? She can win 8 times, but in what kind of match was it? What was the strengthe of the white player?

gxtmf1

I told you how to look up the games; the strongest player she beat was rated 2475, the weakest was still above 2000. These were very brilliant and highly-rated players. The idea behind it could also be a diagonal battery by allowing B-c5 in a protective corner. 

stryik

Just because player X wins Y times out of Z with some opening doesn't mean that it's good, as Kentering has already pointed out.

2. d4 gives White a comfortable advantage in development and Black will stay behind, so why play a6? Perhaps a psychological advantage, if anything, but there's not much to look at here.

jalanze

anthony miles beat anatoli karpov with the a6 opening here is a link to the game

Anatoli Karpov vs Anthony Miles (1980) "The 'Incorrect' Opening"

gxtmf1

h-6? That's your Kingside. That's why the most common defenses against e4 do not mirror (except sicillian/dutch) the most common defenses against d4. And please, before you contribute, observe at least one of the games posted or alluded to. The Karpov vs. Niles demonstrates what I meant by diagonal battery and I would hope you don't question the ability of Niles based on the ability of Karpov. If a person who was at one time the best player on the face of the Earth lost to it, and a man who was also among the best players in the world confidently used it against the former, one would think that comments would be more constructive, like Gonnosuke's.

stryik

@gxtmf1: Sorry, typoed a6 as h6.

gxtmf1

oh, yeah I was rereading your post and I felt kind of stupid; thanks for telling me about the correction.

stryik

Hey, something interesting to report - after looking at the link posted by jalanze (Miles v Karpov), there's a link to a report on ChessBase about some interesting emails by Fischer found on his old laptop computer. Here's a relevant one:

<If you have to play Karpov, which is quite likely, I have a cool idea. Just play 1… P-QR3. The idea is …P-QN4, …B-N2, …P-K3 and then …P-B4. I tried it, later it becomes a Sicilian, nothing special. But Karpov will be furious and will not be able to play straight. Wanna bet? He will probably try to stop you from playing in any of his tournaments. But what the hell, its worth it just to see his face, isn’t it?>

And hey, maybe he was right :o

Fischer types like a real internet tough guy, though, if you look at the other emails. Maybe all the public attention got to his head?

mnag

stryik

Best you check the date on the ChessBase article, I believe its April 1st.

KillaBeez

I like the St. George for surprise value, but what Gonnosuke said was great.  I eventually went away from it because White could hang tight to see what I wanted to do

Irish_Chess86

It loses time, it might be fun to play against people with a far lower rating but in tournament play against strong players it's absolutely pointless. I know you can play b.5 and fianchetto your bishop but it's still a weak position for black.

Beelzebub666

St George killed the dragon.  I hereby rename this one the crappy defense and reserve the St George counter for one of the sicilian killers.

snits
gxtmf1 wrote:

h-6? That's your Kingside. That's why the most common defenses against e4 do not mirror (except sicillian/dutch) the most common defenses against d4. And please, before you contribute, observe at least one of the games posted or alluded to. The Karpov vs. Niles demonstrates what I meant by diagonal battery and I would hope you don't question the ability of Niles based on the ability of Karpov. If a person who was at one time the best player on the face of the Earth lost to it, and a man who was also among the best players in the world confidently used it against the former, one would think that comments would be more constructive, like Gonnosuke's.


I think Miles did it more out of humor than anything. Just like he played the Alekhine's Defense and won the Capablanca Tournament in Cuba because he thought that would be funny to win the tournament with an opening named after Capablanca's foe.

It was also a way to avoid a bunch of theory and Karpov's preparation.

gxtmf1

Good comments everybody (except Beelzebub). Try shooting this one down: The plan may be to have both bishops and the queen on those corner diagonals not to control the center, but, rather attack White's King if it were to kingside castle.

stryik

Reasonable plan of attack, but I think the main issue with the opening is that it's too passive for a first move, really, not that the idea behind it is flawed.

dsarkar
gxtmf1 wrote:

 This defense responds to e4 with a6. Don't stop reading here. Everything I've read and probably much of what everyone has read will dictate that opening with an a or h pawn IS NOT GOOD. But here's food for thought: Anna-Maria Botsari has won 8 games playing this defense while only losing one. That loss also came during a 20-under tournament, which means that while she progressed in she improved her understanding of this move. 


Many top level players can win serious games by giving a pawn odd - that does not automatically mean that pawn-odd is a good way of winning games! It is Botsari's playing strength that won the games, not some magical properties of a6 move (in my opinion a6 is not a bad move, but it wastes tempo - there are a hundreds of variations in which a6 will not give any benefit at all.) 

dsarkar
jalanze wrote:

anthony miles beat anatoli karpov with the a6 opening here is a link to the game

Anatoli Karpov vs Anthony Miles (1980) "The 'Incorrect' Opening"


 I just looked at the game - simply b6 could have done the same purpose as a6 & b5 moves (count 1 move wasted)!

Immanuel

I learned about the St. George from a few annotated games of Tony Miles.  It took my fancy right off the bat.  It's quite fun to play.  I played it just once in a tournament.  Glad to say I won the game (though not because of the opening).  I don't play it anymore, though.  I am training myself by playing only e4 e5 at the moment.

brandonQDSH

For the bashers out there, read this: this opening is legit. Look at the Game Explorer; there are over 1,000 recorded games by the Master Class players on this site, and Black wins with 1. a6 34.4% of the time! Black wins and draws 53% of the time, which is pretty good for such a goofy opening.

Black does a pretty good job of developing his two Bishops to rake the Kingside-castled position. Yes, White does gain a majority of the center, but with all the hypermodern strategies out there nowadays, central control doesn't necessarily spell out a win for White.