The Fried Liver Attack and the Lolli Attack

Okay, any questions or analysis you have about the Traxler Counterattack can probably be answered by the group Traxler Analysis (I am one of them Smile)

The Lolli attack is the way to go for white.

The problem with the Fried Liver are these lines:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nce7 9.d4 c6 10.Bg5 h6 11.Bxe7 Bxe7 12.0-0-0 Rf8 13.Qe4 Bg5+ 14.Kb1 Rf4 15.Qxe5+ Kf7 16.Nd5 cxd5 17.Bxd5+ Kf8

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nce7 9.0-0 c6 10.Re1 Kd6 11.d4 Kc7

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qf3+ Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 9.a3 Nxc2+ 10.Kd1 Nxa1 11.Nxd5 c6 (Other alternatives include 11...Kd7, 11...Kd6, 11...Qh4) 12.Nc7+ Kd6 13.Nxa8 Qh4 14.Qd3+ Qd4 15.Qxd4 exd4 and black has the better game.

Unless white can address all of these lines I have brought up, then black is fine.

Now, the main line of the Polerio variation procedes:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ne5 Bd6 11.d4 and white is looking great up a pawn.

It's being actively investigated in the Traxler Analysis group - but my Estrin book says that 7.Ke3 is an error exactly due to Qh4. He also mentions Qe7.

If Black doesn't get enough for his pawn, why does Friedel play it in the final round of the US Championships against Nakamura?  I think Black gets plenty enough for his pawn.

2 Knights is actually the best response to the Italian game and is played by all levels. Black only loses a pawn if white plays Ng5, but that opens up MUCH worse problems for white. Just look at the statistics for white after playing Ng5. Black is also likely to regain the pawn later.

Like many said, 5...Nxd5 is a big mistake. 5...Na5 or 5...Nd4 are both much better.

As for the Fried Liver, it is extremely dangerous for black OTB and is generally considered sound.

The Traxler is sound also. Look at the stats after 5. Nxf7...lopsided in favor of black.

I don't think that line is what I would play. I always played a different line with white:

The previous post was for the Na5 line.

Quoting ozzie_c_cobblepot... does your book give any line? I need hard evidence and I agree with Conquisador. GO THE LOLLI ATTACK!!!!!

the original name should be figatello i guess

"the Nd4 line of the lolli is still bad for black.  after b5 Bxd5 Qxd5 white should NOT play cxd4 but f3!  this prevents the capture on g2 and the knight still can't move due to the pin against the queen.  just my opinion."

WHAT!?

Sup guys! =D 

I think after 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bb3, black's best moves are just to develop with things like 6... Qe8 or 6...Rf7. 

But the main lines are more like: 

Buuut white probably has better lines. My personaly favourite is simply not accepting the gambit and going Kf1 after Bxf2+. It's probably the easiest line to win with for white. 

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. 

LOL i?

very nice, thank you :)

Lol. No problem =) 

My eyes burn after looking at that post.  Okay where to start...

5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8? is losing for black.  It is recommended all over the place, yet it is a terrible move if you analyse it.

I agree with your second line, even if white continues 11.Rh4 e4+ 12.Kg2 and if I remember correctly 12...d5.  White's best is to probably go for the perpetual in this line.

As to your second line, I think I died a bit on the inside seeing 7...Bb6.  7...d5! is much better and pretty much equal.

Of course 6...Rf8 is looooosssssiing, but black doesn't have much else. He/she doesn't have a simple way to win the pawn back. I mean, his King can't castle, he's down a pawn, and he has to stop the 7.Nf7 fork threat. Rf8 is just one of the very few ways to develop and try get something going. 

I definitely do not see how 7...d5 is equal. 8.exd5 and now both your knight and bishop are being attacked. While at the same time, white is up a rook. Even if the white knight in the corner gets slaughtered, white is up the exchange.. and the d5 pawn. 
This is talk materially, of course, but I still don't see really solid equalising opportunities for black. Maybe gimme some lines, perhaps? 

That's right, you were in the Traxler Analysis Group =D 

Therefore: 
GIMME DER LINES!!

5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 is the mainline.

9.d6 was the supposed refutation, but 9...Qxd6 10.Nf7 Qe7 equalizes.

I still don't see how that's equal. 11.c3 trying to kick the knight away. And also opening up the option of Qa4+ if needed (in case of Bg4). 

White is still quite up in material. o.O I don't see it. I think white is winning by miles. 

(B)11. c3 Bg4 12.Qa4+ Nd7 13. cxd4
        (13. Kxf2 Qh4+ 14. Ke3
            (14. Kf1 Bh5 15. Nxe5 O-O-O 16. Nxd7 (16. cxd4? Rf8+
            17. Nf3 Bxf3 18. Qa3 (18. gxf3 Qh3+ 19. Ke1 Qxf3 20. Rf1
            Re8+) 18... Bxg2+ 19. Kxg2 Qf2+ 20. Kh3 Rf3+ With a winning
            initiative.)(16. g3 Qf6+ 17. Kg2 Bf3+ 18. Nxf3 Qxf3+
            19. Kh3 19... Qh5+)
            16... Qf4+ 17. Kg1 Be2 18. h4 Nf3+ 19. Kf2 Nd4+ 20. Kg1)
         14... Kf8 15. Qa3+ c5 16. Nd6 Qg5+ 17. Kf2 (17. Ke4 Nf6+ 18. Kd3 Be2#)
        17... Qf4+ 18. Kg1 Be2 19. h3 Nf3+ 20. Kf2 Nd4+)
    13... Qf6 (13... Bxd4 !?) 14. Nd6+ (14.dxe5? Qf4) 14... cxd6 15. dxe5 Qxe5
    (15... Qf4? 16. Bf7+ Qxf7 17. Qxg4) 16.Bf7+ (16. Kxf2 Qf4+) 16... Ke7 17. Kxf2
    Rf8 18. Qxg4 Rxf7+ 19. Qf3 Qd4+ 20. Ke2 Rxf3 21. gxf3 Ne5 22. Rf1 Qc4+ 23. d3
    (23. Kf2 Nd3+) 23... Qxd3+ with perpetual.)

White has to take a perpetual or lose.

ooooooooooooooooh thanks! I'll take a look at all this

Woahhhh. That's pretty incredible.. 

Would you mind me asking you about whether or not the Traxler's Counterattack actually works then?