play nd2, after f5 suporting knight you have a great outpost, play ne5, then play f3, nf6 f4! i ne4 youve just gained a tempo, since you wanted f4 anyway
the London system the dreaded knight
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umm am i missing something? After the extremely unnatural Bxe4! doesnt white have a huge bind?
chessarran8 wrote:
by the way if anyone wonder why the bishop is on g3 it is because if black takes your rock has a open file to attack on
Even if ur bishop on g3 is taken,I believe you are supposed to take with the h pawn to avoid ur kingside being weakened
Expertise87 wrote:
unfortunately the London system is refuted by 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3?(system move but it's very dubious) 5...Qb6 and Black is at least slightly better.
-BEES- wrote:
Nothing wrong with the london. It's played at all levels and White can guarantee a playable midgame from it against much stronger players. Additionally, many people are used to responding to Queen's Gambit but not to sideline d4 openings, so they'll be off their strong lines. There is utility in doing that. Haters gonna hate. Just stick with what you like.
What do you suggest after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.c3? I think White can capture on c5 and keep it next turn.
Some people here should read Nimzoitsch. An outpost is characterized by the fact that it is on an semi open file. With a pawn of e6 the knight on e4 is not a strong piece at all and white will force a favorable exchange when he just keeps developing normaly and after that kicks it with f3 (helps taking the center with e4 as well)
If there would not be a pawn on e6 the knight on e4 would be much stronger because kicking it with f3 will give black another positional advantage .. a backward pawn on a semi open file. While exchanging on e4 would give black more space for free.
So in short. Moving your knight to e4 before finished development is moving the same piece in the opening twice and is therefor not a development move. White should basicly just ignore it and complete development. After that kick the knight out and you have a position you can be happier about than normally in the London system.
likhit thats the whole ponit in the london you either castle queenside or not at all so when your bishop goes agasint the pawn and gets taken your rook has a semi openfile on the h file and this is a huge advatange!
ok thank you moonnie and berk you might need to try playing the london system because it is a very strong opening which when compteled offers alot of strong attacks but yes you do have to be careful of pawn forks it is true
and random memory possibely good but d x e4 pushes you knight to very back squares which lose alot of tempo much more then bg3
but thank you everyone for helping so far im very greatful
Feb 12, 2013
0
#31
TitanCG wrote:
Expertise87 wrote:
unfortunately the London system is refuted by 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3?(system move but it's very dubious) 5...Qb6 and Black is at least slightly better.
-BEES- wrote:
Nothing wrong with the london. It's played at all levels and White can guarantee a playable midgame from it against much stronger players. Additionally, many people are used to responding to Queen's Gambit but not to sideline d4 openings, so they'll be off their strong lines. There is utility in doing that. Haters gonna hate. Just stick with what you like.
What do you suggest after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.c3? I think White can capture on c5 and keep it next turn.
Black has several good moves there. 4...Nc6 (of course) 5.dxc5 (maybe better than 5.e3?) 5...e6! 6.b4 a5 and Black should be at least slightly better (7.b5 Ne7 followed by Ng6 and Bxc5). Also good is 5...Ne4.
In general White should play Nbd2 before playing Bd3, so that he can play Rb1 if Black plays ...Qb6.
Feb 12, 2013
0
#33
The problem there is that Black has time for ...Bf5 if you're talking about a structure where Black has not yet committed his e-pawn.
pellik wrote:
I think retreating the bishop to g3 right away with the intent of recapturing with the h pawn is sort of hope chess. White wants the rook to make an attack possible but it's just too early and black can simply develop to make the rook passé.
If you're opposed to recapturing on f4 with the e pawn then just play Ne5 (you wanted to do it anyway). After Ne5 then possibly Bg3 will make sense if you want to play f4, but if you can manage with Bg5 then it's even stronger.
Is the london system any good against the KID, grunfeld, dutch or benoni?
Or is it specifically only against 1.d4 d5 stuff?
Randomemory wrote:
Is the london system any good against the KID, grunfeld, dutch or benoni?
Or is it specifically only against 1.d4 d5 stuff?
Its pretty bad against the KID, infact most london players who know what theyre doing adopt a d4-c4-bf4-e3-be2 setup against the kid, as the normal setup gets destroyed.
I quite like it against the grunfeld, its actually quite trappy and I have a lot of quick wins with it including a win over a 2200 rater OTB in 17 moves. However I dont use it against the grun anymore, due to some transpositional issues with the KID and other g6 systems.
the old benoni can give trouble in the setting up of the system, but once again if players arnt the type who refuse to play anything non london, going old benoni mainline will give them a nice position.
I dont really know too much about using it v the dutch, but i dont suspect it would do all too well. The leningrad is basically an accelerated KID, so it has the same problems. I dont know about te classical.
pellik wrote:
Randomemory wrote:
pellik wrote:
I think retreating the bishop to g3 right away with the intent of recapturing with the h pawn is sort of hope chess. White wants the rook to make an attack possible but it's just too early and black can simply develop to make the rook passé.
If you're opposed to recapturing on f4 with the e pawn then just play Ne5 (you wanted to do it anyway). After Ne5 then possibly Bg3 will make sense if you want to play f4, but if you can manage with Bg5 then it's even stronger.
Is the london system any good against the KID, grunfeld, dutch or benoni?
Or is it specifically only against 1.d4 d5 stuff?
It's ok against the KID. Not as good as the main lines, but respectable for a sideline. Depending on move order it declines the benoni, so it's a reasonable choice there if you want to avoid that. (If black races and gets c5 in before Bf4 white can't very well play a normal London, as the exchange slav may come about. However, that's a Benoni where white could play d5 without having played c4, and is considered good for white)
It's terrible against the Grunfeld where the barry attack is the most thematic idea, which is only dangerous if black doesn't know what to do.
Against the dutch it's both a reasonable choice for white and not terribly challenging for black. White is developing into central dark square control from move one which is somewhat problematic for black. However, white is pointing his bishop the wrong way to exploit black's weakened king structure. I'd probably prefer the colle-zuckertort against the dutch if I were looking to play a d4 sideline.
It is however perfect against a stonewall dutch, as is evident by the same set-up being the best choice against a stonewall attack.
thanks for confirming my suspicions, in blitz, ive found myself doing okay against the london system with the dutch, doing OKAY with the KID against it too.
to all you london players .... i'm gonna be honest with you .... using the london is like using the belly putter in golf .... its kind of seen as a sissy opening, a cop out to comitting yourself to devoted chess opening study. Yes you get playable middle games but it doesn't take advantage of the blitz kreig motive of being white ...it really is easy for black to equalize if black does serious study, so if your ever interested in moving past expert level to becoming a master .... believe me .... other masters really do know what to do against it .... especially in this era with lots of internet study available .... most masters at their level are booked up against it ... for example .... kings indian defence with knight on f6 back to d7. commit yourself to the study and take advantage of being white. I'm just telling you how it really is. Anyone else agree?
forgive me but i just wanted to rant some more, as an addition to my above comment. don't don't buy into the talk about avoiding opening moves like e4 because of all the heavy theory you have to learn with ALL the different kinds of response by black. YOU are the one who chooses where to go with what black chooses, and you can make it specific and sweet. Also realize the statistics. Most of the time you will encounter c5 or e5. You can choose a response that need only take you one afternoon of study for each one, to play at expert level confidently. For example, against c5 the theme in the grand prix with bishop at b5 is quite straight forward. The bishop opening for e5 is very straight forward and that theme can be learned in one afternoon. And that covers 80 percent of the responses you will generally meet. As far as the othert responses , you can look up a conservative safe response in a few hours and confidently use it. The pirc? .... 2 hours of study and you get the basic gist of the 150 system .... a very powerful white advantage type opening. You will need about 10 hours of study to learn the kings indian attack against the french and caro khan (use the 1 Nf3 line .... very powerful, esp against the french). Thats the point .... with this you maintain that smooth natural flow of thrusting chess that being white offers you. PLUS you really need the variety to develop. you really do. the london system is a one trick pony that will stunt your chess growth. There is a very good book by John Emms called "attacking with 1e4" that highlights very good specific lines for white that are powerful yet specific enough to avoid heavy theory and the themes can be learned easily. So, i am not talking about really that many hours of devoted study to get a good grasp, but its so worth it in playing with fun as white, and developing as a player. I am a candidate master, trying to earn a few more points to become master .... so i am obviously not a great player, but i think i travelled the road abit to offer you some ideas. what do you think. please be nice .... i am sorry if i offended anyone with the sissy comment ... i get too passionate with my emotions sometimes.
could i please have some feedback on what pepole think about the move bg6?