Can you give the first moves? Because I don't know what is the Scotch!
the scotch
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1. e4 e5 2.nf3 nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. nxd4
May 15, 2009
0
#4
I know what Scotch is and the more I have the worse I play!
The Scotch is more offensive than what, better than what? You can't say the Sicilian because it is Black that chooses the Sicilian. If Black plays 1... c5 White is not going to play a Scotch. To say nothing of Black choices like e6, c6, d5, g6, d6, Nf6, etc. Black does have threats in the Scotch, I believe its the Bc5 lines but I've only looked at the "chessic" Scotch (as opposed to real Scotch) a couple times. The problem with the Scotch is it fizzles out as White has released the Center too soon. In a double KP opening, the best opening to ensure a White advantage is the Ruy Lopez. It can be difficult and complex but it beats the King Gambit, Guiocco, Center/Danish?Goring, Scotch, etc. If you want something simpler with some possibiiities the Scotch is fine but be aware if your opponent knows the lines as well you are unlikely to win.
Play the goring gambit and/or the bishops opening !! According to my database the scotch scores the same % for white that the Ruy does but both the goring and bishops gambits score better !
Red to move.
May 15, 2009
0
#8
Reb,
You know better than to select an opening on just a dBase report. What do those stats look like when adjusted for date and rating? Goring and esp Bishop's are fine for club play but will get you in trouble either in online/correspondence play or against better players, like you.
Kasparov used that in the 90's.....
Certian people like me use the scotch in otb very effectivlly and ruy is kind of bad after a3
Krish30 wrote:
Certian people like me use the scotch in otb very effectivlly and ruy is kind of bad after a3
lol @ ruy being bad after a3.
I rather like the Vienna Game. You can do a lot of things with it, from the Vienna Gambit (basically a delayed KG) to slow positional games, to the wild and uber-aggressive frankenstein-dracula variation, depending on your mood.
May 15, 2009
0
#13
I've played Ruy, Scotch, Vienna and Bishop and that is the order I would rank their objective strengths. If you only play OTB it may be to your advantage to use an opening further down the list to sidestep Black preparation and to gain greater familiarity.
Kasparov did indeed use the Scotch and won. So people started playing it, defending against it, investigating it. Now, the Bc5 lines have pulled the teeth from this Scotch (but not my single malt!) and players continue to look for the next best thing. All have been played at very high, if not the highest level but the Scotch, Vienna and Bishop come and go. Only the Ruy stays, even if the variations change.
BTW who is playing a3 in the Ruy? I usually play a6.
CarlMI wrote:
The problem with the Scotch is it fizzles out as White has released the Center too soon. In a double KP opening, the best opening to ensure a White advantage is the Ruy Lopez. It can be difficult and complex but it beats the King Gambit, Guiocco, Center/Danish?Goring, Scotch, etc. If you want something simpler with some possibiiities the Scotch is fine but be aware if your opponent knows the lines as well you are unlikely to win.
Uhm, the Scotch is 100% fine for white at every level. Even GM level.
Let me quote someone that might convince you:
Kasparov "Apart from the Ruy Lopez, only the Scotch gives white any real winning chance after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6"
I think I'll go ahead and trust old Garry on this. No offence, but if you know your Scotch lines you will beat your opponent. Besides what line works if your opponent knows more of the lines then you do? None, so that's hardly any point to make.
May 15, 2009
0
#15
But when did Garry say this? Opening evaluations are always in a state of flux and the evaluation may have easily changed since then.
CarlMI wrote:
But when did Garry say this? Opening evaluations are always in a state of flux and the evaluation may have easily changed since then.
Probably in the 90s when he was using it. Does it really matter? The important question is if there has been any refutations of the sctoch lines for white. Afaik there has not. So I'm not sure where you are getting that Ruy Lopez is better then the Scotch.
EDIT: Also, I'm talking about the new lines kasparov kind of invented like exchanging knights on c6 pretty much no matter what move black makes. Those moves did not exist when the scotch lost popularity in the early 1900s. Kasparov invented lines that are not refuted yet as far as I know.
I do on the other hand agree that aside from Ruy Lopez and Scotch Game there does not seem to be much else at the highest level when aiming for a good win. Atleast that's what I've read. I'm not a GM myself :--p
sry it was supposed to be a6 i was kind of sleepy when i posted it i had just came back from school and it was a horrible day
I must reinvestigate the Scotch. It has always given me trouble when I faced it from the Black side. This makes me think, maybe I should try it as White.
May 15, 2009
0
#19
My understanding is the Bc5 lines were not fully developed until after Kasparov had quit playing the Scotch and that they changed the eval greatly. It does take into account Gari's 5. Nxc6 which seems in fact to be the only line which gives White anything to hope for. All in all, good for OTB but probably insufficent for CC. By that token the King's Gambit can also offer some opportunities.
As with you, what I've read rather than being able to offer a qualified opinion myself.
I say that the scotch is a more offensive and better opening to white because it is just like the sicilian but black has no threats and if they play book moves it is still really sharp play. I want to learn about other openings and also anyone disagree what i said because i would love some critism.